Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by yipster

Brian, good to see you did enter the contest

think i comply'd with the rules but doubt my half a powercat design has much chance here

i wonder how many and what other designs entered and hope all get some expert response and exposure

Looks like this will be tough to determine since the magazine and school are doing nothing to notify the other contestants of this forum discussion here:
ALL Contestant's Submissions Aired??
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpos...08&postcount=9

[brian eiland]

This vessel is now for sale...but who can afford these fuel bills in this day and age.

You can find some of my discussions on this vessel back at posting #76



....some excerpts...

Originally Posted by brian eiland

....I was just looking thru the latest BOAT USA International mag (Mar/Apr 05 issue), and came upon a sizable article about the new “MITseaAH” motor sailing vessel. This unusual and challenging design is receiving quite a bit of boating press at present, and apparently a lot of interest at this past years’ Ft. Lauderdale boat show. There was also a very good, extensive article & illustrations in the Apr 04 issue of Yachting World.

I applaud most all attempts to resurrect the motorsailer concept, as I feel it has been a sorely neglected subject in this modern boating world....The latest doubling of the crude oil prices might just spur more developments in the motorsailor arena.

Back to the subject of the vessel “MITseaAH”. I really can appreciate the extraordinary efforts on the behalf of the creators of this vessel. They were really challenged to develop solutions to a tough number of requirements by the client. And they managed to come up with some very unique solutions.

But here I would like to offer an alternative solution to satisfy that owner’s requirements. First lets look at some of his major requirements:....

I submit that all of these requirements could have been met by a 100-120 foot catamaran
motorsailing vessel. For an example have a look at “Douce France” .....

[brian eiland]

copy of letter I recently sent to:
Bill Jacobs, Contributing Editor, PassageMaker magazine

I really appreciated reading your article on “ Power with Wind, The Return of the Motorsailer” in the Dec ‘08 issue of Passagemaker magazine. Back in the early days of this magazine I inquired on several occasions about submitting some material on the same subject of motorsailers, but it was rejected at that time as being outside their scope of subject matter due to it’s inclusion of a vessel “with sails”…no ‘sailing vessels’ allowed. I’m glad the magazine has awakened to the realities of this new world fuel situation, and given recognition to the old concept of the ‘motorsailer’.

I’m judging from the internet sites that you referenced and quoted in the article that you’ve done a fair bit of web browsing on the subject. This being the case, I would also assume that you have likely run across some of the discussions that I’ve contributed on the subject? Here are a few of those forum discussions in case you did not find them:

Motor/Sailer Design, Expedition Yacht
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

Motor Sailers
Motor Sailers?

Displacement Glider, PowerKeel, etc
Displacement Glider, PowerKeel, etc?

Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ge...ohn-alden.html

Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden


Obviously I was very taken with the motorsailer concept as well. My early foray (66 years old) into the yachting field was met with most publications of that time making numerous mentions of the term “motorsailer”….very popular term at the time. Sadly the concept has been neglected for so long.

I confess I was a little disappointed that you failed to mention, nor make reference to, the possibilities of multihulled motorsailers, i.e.;

Motor/Sailing Catamaran Concept
Motor Sailers?

Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers

Gamefishing for Sail Under Sail (and power)
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ge...ail-power.html



,,But I commend you on mentioning the kite-power possibilities. I’ve started this particular subject thread on a couple of design forums (and particularly at the urging of Guillermo):

New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ge...oweryacht.html
New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht



,,,And I do realize that you couldn’t cover the entire subject matter in only one article.

I want to make reference to your article on both boat forums, and include a link to Passagemaker magazine. It might also be nice that there existed a *permanent web location* where the forum members could go and read a copy of the article . But as happens far to often, many of them may not be able to gain access to the article at some point in the future when a linked-site is taken down. Would you consider placing a PFD article into the forum discussions? ….or is this not allowed in the publishing world?

Thanks again for your article on the subject matter,
Brian Eiland


PS: It was also very interesting that your motorsailer article was followed immediately with an article on Steve Dashew’s exciting new passagemaker, Wind Horse ,…
....a power vessel to contrast with the sailing vessels that he has promoted for years….nice contrast, and a wealth of interesting material.

[FAST FRED]

"but it was rejected at that time as being outside their scope of subject matter due to it’s inclusion of a vessel “with sails”…no ‘sailing vessels’ allowed. I’m glad the magazine has awakened to the realities of this new world fuel situation, and given recognition to the old concept of the ‘motorsailer’."

Interesting as so many of the boats touted there could hardly be of interest as usefull Passagemakers , the majority are dockside condos , happily aground in their own coffee grounds , and many more are high speed big boxes that seldom have 300 miles of range at speed.

The "trawler" blither is simple PC speech code..Lots easier to own a "trawler" than a twin screw diesel yacht in some circles.

The fuel prices have little to do with world voyaging as a guess 95% is done on conventional auxiliary sail boats.

To strut the dock, claiming fantastic seaworthy abilities ,(while "cruising" 25 hours a year) seems the purpose of most of the boats touted there.

FF

[sabahcat]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Let’s explore a 40' example. Take the single 120-140 hp diesel used to push the conventional 40' single-hulled trawler or motorsailer to a maximum 8.3 knots hull speed and divide it into two smaller 60 hp diesels driving two long slender catamaran hulls. Voila!, maximum to 15 knots under power with the reliability of twin engines and the stability of a twin-hulled vessel.

Thats the boat for me and well into one now, with longer hulls

Add a modest sailing rig to these easily driven hulls, and you now have a passagemaker capable of cruising 12 knots under sail/ power compared with those older 7-knot boats.

Yes, but the cost of this sailing rig? How many miles will it buy for those small diesels?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by sabahcat

Yes, but the cost of this sailing rig? How many miles will it buy for those small diesels?

It's more an issue of the range.. I mean how much diesel you can take and how many NM that counts for? If thats enough you ok. Beyond that you got to have sails..

[sabahcat]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

It's more an issue of the range.. I mean how much diesel you can take and how many NM that counts for? If thats enough you ok. Beyond that you got to have sails..

So, if you build something thats expected to get around 1L/nm and can carry 1500 litres, and longest legs are 800 nm say, then a sail rig would not really be viable

[TeddyDiver]

Right! Thats how I see it anyways..

[sabahcat]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Right! Thats how I see it anyways..

Yep, me to.

Figured I could buy a lot of diesel for the cost of even a cheap rig and sails and associated hardware

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by sabahcat

So, if you build something thats expected to get around 1L/nm and can carry 1500 litres, and longest legs are 800 nm say, then a sail rig would not really be viable

That's true
But then you might consider a 'get home' rig like one of the cheaper kite systems being dreamed up:


New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&NR=1

http://www.kiteforsail.com/

[sabahcat]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

That's true
But then you might consider a 'get home' rig like one of the cheaper kite systems being dreamed up:


New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&NR=1

http://www.kiteforsail.com/

Thanks Brian, I have looked at and had quotes on these already and they all came in at well over $10,000AUD, which to me at hopefully around 1lm/nm equates to a lot of miles.

Do you have a cheaper source? I had even looked getting a couple of old symmetrical kites and getting them stitched along the foot as they look pretty close to a kite sail. (see pics)

As far as a "get home" device, I figured on the dual engines in a cat being that.
Individual and separate tanks/fuel, battery and engine should provide security as it is unlikely I would have thought that both systems would be out of commission at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a motorsail option, but the numbers, bang for buck, don't appear to stack up as yet

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by sabahcat

Thanks Brian, I have looked at and had quotes on these already and they all came in at well over $10,000AUD, which to me at hopefully around 1lm/nm equates to a lot of miles.

Do you have a cheaper source? I had even looked getting a couple of old symmetrical kites and getting them stitched along the foot as they look pretty close to a kite sail. (see pics)

Maybe try a shot at some surplus military stuff from those performance jumpers. Most military gear has a certain 'life time' that's not necessarily used up?

...and have you looked at the gear these kitesailors are using? There are a fair number of video references on that other subject thread dealing with kite power.

[Guillermo]

Brian,
Thanks for mentioning me in your letter to the Passagemaker editor. I'm honoured.
Best regards.

[sabahcat]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

...and have you looked at the gear these kitesailors are using? There are a fair number of video references on that other subject thread dealing with kite power.

Well if youre talking about like on the F24 video, that looks fairly complex and not cheap.

I would like to see what they have on the Mono in my pic above ie: could they launch without the mast?

I do have pics of a 40 odd foot powercat that had a kite up, but never saw how it was launched but the gear you can see (or lack of) is what got me interested, but do you think I can remember where I got the pic?

anyone recognise it?

[sabahcat]

Found it

http://www.kit-cats.com/kite/kite_sail.htm