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  #106  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:35 AM
TANSL TANSL is online now
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Unik, with total honesty I want to tell you that I respect your work a lot but that there are several things that I do not see clear and that can be important when you try to sell the boat to some amateur builder. You say that the boat is designed to meet ISO standards. Probably true, almost certainly it is, but I would like you to give some data to be able to verify it. The applicable rules are many and it is very easy to not fulfilling any of their requirements. To speak of an example (relative to what I could check more easily), how does the ship comply with ISO 12215 or ISO 12217?
My opinion, I think I made clear in previous comments, is that a nice rendering is not a booat until it meets a series of criteria that make the object meet the objectives specified in its SOR, navigate properly and safe.
In short, if I had to buy that boat, I would ask you to clarify many doubts and, being a European, I would ask you to show me the certification as a CE mark made by some entity collaborating with the administration of your/mine country. As I mentioned earlier, amateur construction has many obstacles in some countries and it would be good if you were prepared to help the potential buyer / builder to overcome them.
That is all and, please, even if it seems a lie, my intention is to help. I am not of your competence, I am not designer of yachts, I have no spurious interest....
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  #107  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TANSL View Post
As I mentioned earlier, amateur construction has many obstacles in some countries and it would be good if you were prepared to help the potential buyer / builder to overcome them.
That is all and, please, even if it seems a lie, my intention is to help. I am not of your competence, I am not designer of yachts, I have no spurious interest.
TANSL, I would hold off on further scrutiny until this boat is actually built and tested. Unik has done a good job sharing his plans and getting input. There's a good list of plywood sailboats of this size and larger. When the bluewater testing of this boat is done it will have the opportunity to identify and resolve discrepancies. A capsize test should also be done to see how well it recovers.

Unik, have you actually built & tested any of your designs yet? A lot of companies have a YouTube channel and share videos. This would help a lot so we can see how your boats perform. Overall I like the designs. If you make it to the US and need a crew for testing zap me a message. I have over 10k bluewater sailing miles in my log book.
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  #108  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:20 PM
TANSL TANSL is online now
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JosephT, I understand what you mean and I'm sorry to be the nuisance element of the group. I am used to doing what is called a "project" of the boat, which tries to ensure, before building it, that the minimum safety and navigability requirements will be met. Of course, once built the boat has to do many tests, on many things and equipments.
I believe that one must know much, a lot, of boats to launch themselves to build a boat without having made the project. As I am sure that this project exists, I am asking (some will say who authorizes me to ask) something that allows to see, to whom are interested, how certain things have been calculated, what standards are met and how they are met.
There is no evil in my questions, imo; simple scientific curiosity.
And, of course, the rendering is very beautiful and the 3D models are admirable.
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  #109  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:55 PM
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Hi TANSL, I used to be a quality inspector myself and it's always good to scrutinize. For larger vessels there is much more scrutiny on a design that includes extensive analysis of various criteria (structural, performance, etc.). By the look of Unik's boats they share many common design features of today's modern sloops, though they are adapted for a plywood construction. Having designed and built wooden boats I would say the design of his boats look pretty good, although the devil is always in the details of prototype build and testing phases.

Workmanship is another wildcard. Anyone who buys a kit or plans for these boats and decides to build one will have to rely on the craftsmanship of the carpenter/boat builder. I built a couple of 30+ foot wooden boats and I can tell you professional cabinet makers are worth their weight in gold. They love working with wood, know the various construction joints and under my supervision adapted very well in working with fiberglass & composites to encapsulate wooden parts & reinforce the joints. West Systems 404 is very good for strengthening wooden joints.

Before I sold a boat though I would only build one each and do thorough sea trials. If I were a customer were serious about buying a kit this test information will be very important. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get an independent 3rd party to perform a thorough survey and sea trial to ensure all standards are met.

Until then, I'll wait for the YouTube videos on a completed boat before I say anything else.
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  #110  
Old 01-11-2017, 04:00 PM
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So, wait and see, but ... how can you verify, for example, that the scantlings are correct ?. How do you know that the centreboard is well sized and well placed? And if it is not, what can be done, once the boat is built? And like these, there are quite a few more questions whose answer should already be known.
And another observation, the fact that it is a small boat does not mean that it is not necessary to perform most of the calculations than for a large ship.
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  #111  
Old 01-11-2017, 05:15 PM
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.... I like to know that a design is suitable for the purpose that it intends to fulfill. I have not seen any proof that the scantlings are adequate, nor can you know if stability Is sufficient, etc. I personally do not know if that can be considered as the project of a boat or if it is simply a decorative object, with a boat-like appearance. I think that some possible client, thinking about buying it, would like to know some more technical information about that object. It's just my opinion, as valid, I hope, as yours.
It might be helpful to let to you know Tansl, that Yuriy is an experienced NA, well qualified with a lot of practical experience in small boat sailing, as well as a lot of experience in designing large, commercial and military vessels in a commercial environment.

Yuriy has been very modest in sharing his credentials, ( and maybe the language barrier contributes to this) , but from work he has done for me, I can assure you of his competence and professionalism. You can be assured that his designs are sound and professional designed.
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  #112  
Old 01-11-2017, 05:24 PM
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...., so I chose option two dagger board and lifting keel, keel box is level with the seat and does not occupy much space, it is very simple to manufacture and operate. Using a different design centerboard boat will complicate and increase the cost. The Lion 800 probably use bilge keels, but simple design with no moving parts. I think that everyone in the boat should be very simple and very reliable.
Thanks for those illustrations Yuriy, BUT you are showing the person on the foreberth with the Daggerboard DOWN. If you are sleeping on the boat on the trailer, or moored in shallow water, or on the beach, the Daggerboard will be UP, and a major impediment.

It also shows the mast pillar obstructing the fore-berth, as I mentioned earlier. My preference would be to build an underdeck girder or ring-beam, in composite or aluminium, to support the mast load. I have been told that it is possible, but I have never seen a solution.
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  #113  
Old 01-12-2017, 02:54 AM
TANSL TANSL is online now
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Originally Posted by rwatson View Post
It might be helpful to let to you know Tansl, that Yuriy is an experienced NA...
Of course, I like to know that and I will tell you one thing, the excellent opinion that you (a client) have of Unik is, for me, much more valuable than all the titles that he can show me. So your words, rwatson, are of great value to me. And Unik, congratulations on having, if I am allowed to extrapolate, such satisfied customers.
Having said that, I would like to point out that I have never doubted Unik's ability and know-how, at any time. Moreover, the only skill that I can know, the creation of rendering, I have highlighted several times. Fundamentally I have talked about two things, which I still maintain:
- There are structural solutions that I do not like, I think they are incorrect.
- There are rules that must be met so that the boat can be built in some countries, especially Europeans. I do not know the Australian standard and it is possible that someone does not know the European regulations or the one that is applied in some European country. That's why I still think that warning that the ship should get the "CE" mark is important and for that reason, it need to be tested and certified that some things meet the applicable ISO standards.
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  #114  
Old 01-13-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JosephT View Post
Hi TANSL, I used to be a quality inspector myself and it's always good to scrutinize. For larger vessels there is much more scrutiny on a design that includes extensive analysis of various criteria (structural, performance, etc.). By the look of Unik's boats they share many common design features of today's modern sloops, though they are adapted for a plywood construction. Having designed and built wooden boats I would say the design of his boats look pretty good, although the devil is always in the details of prototype build and testing phases.

Workmanship is another wildcard. Anyone who buys a kit or plans for these boats and decides to build one will have to rely on the craftsmanship of the carpenter/boat builder. I built a couple of 30+ foot wooden boats and I can tell you professional cabinet makers are worth their weight in gold. They love working with wood, know the various construction joints and under my supervision adapted very well in working with fiberglass & composites to encapsulate wooden parts & reinforce the joints. West Systems 404 is very good for strengthening wooden joints.

Before I sold a boat though I would only build one each and do thorough sea trials. If I were a customer were serious about buying a kit this test information will be very important. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get an independent 3rd party to perform a thorough survey and sea trial to ensure all standards are met.

Until then, I'll wait for the YouTube videos on a completed boat before I say anything else.

Joseph thank you, Lion 800 is now in the process of construction as soon as the yacht will be launched will be a series of trials, the video review will necessarily be published
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  #115  
Old 01-13-2017, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TANSL View Post
Unik, with total honesty I want to tell you that I respect your work a lot but that there are several things that I do not see clear and that can be important when you try to sell the boat to some amateur builder. You say that the boat is designed to meet ISO standards. Probably true, almost certainly it is, but I would like you to give some data to be able to verify it. The applicable rules are many and it is very easy to not fulfilling any of their requirements. To speak of an example (relative to what I could check more easily), how does the ship comply with ISO 12215 or ISO 12217?
My opinion, I think I made clear in previous comments, is that a nice rendering is not a booat until it meets a series of criteria that make the object meet the objectives specified in its SOR, navigate properly and safe.
In short, if I had to buy that boat, I would ask you to clarify many doubts and, being a European, I would ask you to show me the certification as a CE mark made by some entity collaborating with the administration of your/mine country. As I mentioned earlier, amateur construction has many obstacles in some countries and it would be good if you were prepared to help the potential buyer / builder to overcome them.
That is all and, please, even if it seems a lie, my intention is to help. I am not of your competence, I am not designer of yachts, I have no spurious interest....

I have repeatedly said that the security I focus on and to satisfy your curiosity, when will be ready the final stability booklet, the chart will be published.
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  #116  
Old 01-13-2017, 07:35 AM
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Thanks for those illustrations Yuriy, BUT you are showing the person on the foreberth with the Daggerboard DOWN. If you are sleeping on the boat on the trailer, or moored in shallow water, or on the beach, the Daggerboard will be UP, and a major impediment.

It also shows the mast pillar obstructing the fore-berth, as I mentioned earlier. My preference would be to build an underdeck girder or ring-beam, in composite or aluminium, to support the mast load. I have been told that it is possible, but I have never seen a solution.

Hi Ray, Thanks for your assessment,

About the centerboard, but when the yacht will be moored in shallow water raised the centerboard will create some inconvenience, this will have to accept.

About the pillers on which rests the mast, it performs a dual function, it takes the load from the lifting of the keel and supports the mast, Yes it creates some inconvenience but this is the best solution in this situation, any other solution will be harder and will have a greater mass. I don't want to complicate the design of the boat for self-construction must be simple simple in construction.
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  #117  
Old 01-13-2017, 07:50 AM
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Unik Unik is offline
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Originally Posted by TANSL View Post
Of course, I like to know that and I will tell you one thing, the excellent opinion that you (a client) have of Unik is, for me, much more valuable than all the titles that he can show me. So your words, rwatson, are of great value to me. And Unik, congratulations on having, if I am allowed to extrapolate, such satisfied customers.
Having said that, I would like to point out that I have never doubted Unik's ability and know-how, at any time. Moreover, the only skill that I can know, the creation of rendering, I have highlighted several times. Fundamentally I have talked about two things, which I still maintain:
- There are structural solutions that I do not like, I think they are incorrect.
- There are rules that must be met so that the boat can be built in some countries, especially Europeans. I do not know the Australian standard and it is possible that someone does not know the European regulations or the one that is applied in some European country. That's why I still think that warning that the ship should get the "CE" mark is important and for that reason, it need to be tested and certified that some things meet the applicable ISO standards.

TANSL about the CE mark on the boat, I answered you in post #62 is not necessary to repeat the same questions.

If you don't like my design decisions, and you want to dispute them, please offer your own version-I'd love to discuss it.
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  #118  
Old 01-13-2017, 08:17 AM
TANSL TANSL is online now
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Unik, I do not want you to waste any more time arguing with me. As I said before, I am not a yacht designer and I will not be exposing an alternative design to yours. Yours will always be better than mine and I think you want to sell your design and not mine.
As for the CE mark, I do not see anything in your post # 62 that allows me to deduce that your boat meets the necessary requirements to obtain it. But surely it is because I no longer have the mental agility, the ability, to deduce what is not clear. Do not worry about this. If you do not care, I do not have any reason to care.
As you well know, ISO standards do not require a stability booklet to be created. None of them need it at all. The only thing to do, regarding stability, is to complete the forms of ISO 12217. So you do not have to show me a stability booklet when you have created it.
I'm really sorry that what I thought were interesting advice is of no use to you. I thank you again for your patience with me and the attention you have given me, I wish you much success and, really, you do not need to do anything that you did not think, just because I'm curious.
I finish here with my silly questions and tricky answers.
Cheers.
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  #119  
Old 01-13-2017, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by TANSL View Post
Unik, I do not want you to waste any more time arguing with me. As I said before, I am not a yacht designer and I will not be exposing an alternative design to yours. Yours will always be better than mine and I think you want to sell your design and not mine.
As for the CE mark, I do not see anything in your post # 62 that allows me to deduce that your boat meets the necessary requirements to obtain it. But surely it is because I no longer have the mental agility, the ability, to deduce what is not clear. Do not worry about this. If you do not care, I do not have any reason to care.
As you well know, ISO standards do not require a stability booklet to be created. None of them need it at all. The only thing to do, regarding stability, is to complete the forms of ISO 12217. So you do not have to show me a stability booklet when you have created it.
I'm really sorry that what I thought were interesting advice is of no use to you. I thank you again for your patience with me and the attention you have given me, I wish you much success and, really, you do not need to do anything that you did not think, just because I'm curious.
I finish here with my silly questions and tricky answers.
Cheers.

No offense, willing to answer any questions, especially questions that you raise are very important and many people want to know the answers.
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  #120  
Old 01-15-2017, 09:16 PM
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Hi Ray, Thanks for your assessment,

About the centerboard, but when the yacht will be moored in shallow water raised the centerboard will create some inconvenience, this will have to accept.

About the pillers on which rests the mast, it performs a dual function, it takes the load from the lifting of the keel and supports the mast, Yes it creates some inconvenience but this is the best solution in this situation, any other solution will be harder and will have a greater mass. I don't want to complicate the design of the boat for self-construction must be simple simple in construction.
Yes, its true, every boat is some sort of compromise.

I was curious to know if you have ever worked out a method for replacing the mast pillar with some sort of beam?

Purely thinking of my own project, of course. My thoughts were along some kind of laminated timber beam or even an aluminium welded frame. We must be dealing with a load of under 500 kilos on a boat this size I would have thought.
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