Yrvind, a swedish designer?

First, I appreciate those here who have been putting up with my questions and even my humor.

While I love the thought of a small cat for my adventures, maybe the better boat would be a freighter canoe. Found a thread with a nice one with tentage. I'm just guess that a 24', 5 or 5 1/2' beam, 30" freeboard would have the capacity I need. With outriggers, I'd have more stability. With a 9.9 hp Honda, the economy. I know nothing about matching a sail plan to a boat, I'm thinking the rigging and sail from a Hobbie 16 would push me along to cruise. I can demast by myself. Oars can always get me ashore. A portable "A" frame with a winch can lift any load I'd carry, pull the boat up, set up the "A" frame and pull the boat under it ashore, unload, push the boat back and let the load down. (I'd didn't even mention a motorcycle, lol)

I'm thinking a cabin top about 10 inches higher than the gunnels, arched over the top, 12' long. with a good hatch. Use tentage over the cockpit.

There is a Swedish guy who has a site I found and have read most all of his adventures, his name is Yrvind and I found him through some microcruising sites. He basically went from northern Europe to South America, the horn and back up to Canada in a very heavy built 15/16 footer. His boat looks like a tank, it just says....Mother Nature can't hurt me! His boat is now in a museum.

I'd like my freighter canoe built in this heavy fashion, over built, but would probably have to have a heavier sail plan to be right than salvaged Hobbie materials (noted), but if I were to get hit or hit a telephone pole bobbing in the Mississippi, I wouldn't die.

So, I realize that this type of craft is probably not a popular subject for all the experts here, but design wise, am I heading down a doable course here?
I don't mind building the thing as I probably can't find something like this or something to start with, I'm no boat builder, it would be my first. I do have carpentry skills and woodworking knowledge and understand it's not building a house. I heard someone say building a canoe was pretty easy, you just glue up a long stack of wood and cut away everything that is not a canoe!

Suggestions, guidance please....Thanks again.

 

Hmm? less than 5% response....anyone? Maybe I should not have veered off course from another thread, sorry, but it was a different question. I'm still trying to figure this out, never looked at boating from an engineering standpoint....very interesting and I see it's addictive too. Any comments at all would help, yea or nay...thanks

 

I'll hazard a guess for the lack of responses.
You seem to be bouncing around for just exactly what you want. Last I read, you were looking for something to house a motorcycle.
Your best bet for help is to sit down and figure out what you really want. Buy a 20 footer for a $1000 or so and sail it around. Figure out what fits you and what doesn't.
No one can help you until you really know what you want. The possibilities, while not endless, are still numerous enough that most people don't care to play many rounds of "what if".

Look up Night Heron. You might like that. Its a trimaran, with a cabin, not too big, but not too small either.

My few experiences sailing and rowing against wind and current on the Tennessee river leads me to caution you about trying something with too little propulsion attached. You can row quite a while in a larger boat and not make much progress at all. My amateur 2 cents worth.

 

I agree with GTO,

you should narrow down your requirements instead of spinning our heads. That would produce serious advice on a real project, rather than opinions on a broad idea.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/design-spiral-where-start-building-boat-28580.html

Might be of help.

Richard

 

Seems I am guilty of doing the same thing newbie real estate investors do, asking questions with the lack of direction toward a specific goal, making money is not a business plan.

My questions have been random I suppose, I guess I'm looking for someone who can share similar experiences of cruising rivers, inlets and the ICWs. I have read about all I can read and most suggest a much larger boat than I care to get into, hoping to hear from someone who can provide the pros and cons of a much smaller boat first of all.

I have owned many boats, I was happy with each one after I bought them. A year later there was somewhat an indifference toward them and by the next season, they sat until sold. The only cat I have sailed was a Hobbie 16, pretty simple. The largest I have ever sailed was an old Thinderbird at 26 or 27 feet, wasn't a real challenge with the owner aboard. I sailed canoes, kayaks and small boards. So, by now, I hope I can identify my needs.

Another thing I dislike is reading long rablings of some newbie explaining the obvious, like making money in real estate, I tried not to over do it, but I see that it may not be obvious as design, sailing or boating in general is a love relationship and an art as much as a science. I thank this site for making me more aware of that.

I'm afraid that the boat that will fit my needs and wants does not exist as a production boat. I could buy a 45' motorsailor, but it wouldn't go anywhere, I'm now retired and have imposed a budget, something I have not lived with for more than twenty years. My desires are limited by my self imposed economic requirements, if I take my dream machine out and decide to go further as a lifestyle rather than just an adventure, I can do that. I have a cabin at the lake, the well was out and I lived there hauling water, walking downhill with groceries and hearing bass boats buzz by at 5:30 am...I moved! It's good for me to get away, but that's alot of effort to survive near or on the water. So, my wanting a 45' rig is just not praticle for me.

I guess walking up and down that steep hill at the lake let me know that I don't want to take any long hikes from the shore when the need arises. I need transportation, not a bicycle, but something with a motor to get me up the hills. I don't want to rent a car or use public transportation in New Orleans to see the sites. Getting somewhere is half the fun, I'd like to enjoy it when I arrive.

I would like a boat big enough for two people and yes, she would be a very good friend, not for three months but for three weeks, probably more like three days. It's been years since I stayed on a boat for three days! I'd like to have a berth that is a queen size, 5X6, that's what I count on, but she is a really good friend so it could be a little smaller, but not much. It could also be two singles. A queen size air bed would be perfect.

I would like a shower, but considering that I have bathed out of an Army helmet, I could make do. I think the regulations and compliance issues of a black water holding tank would be something I don't want to be hasseled with, so a portable is likely the thing to have, much less maintenance too.

Maintenance is a big issue, I'm lazy and I know it. I will if I really need to, but I'm not scrubbing a 40' deck. My boats always got the garden hose and sometimes a bucket of soapy water when I got home. Winterizing an inboard is a pain to me and I have that done. A small outboard I can carry inside and I can do a can of gas treatment in a tank or jsut flush it.

While maintenance is not fun for me, making repairs seems to fall into another category, it's more constructive and enjoyable.

All of this personal insight lends to the design that will fit me on a personal basis, shouldn't a boat be a reflection of the person? My cars have been, lol.

While I don't race anymore, I can refrain from the competition on the water to race a F28 or a Donzi. I won't be pulling a skier, at most an innertube with a child or maybe a drunk. I know I don't want to be bumping a headwind and getting further from my destination either. I'd like to have say a top speed of 20 and cruise at 15, a little less would also be acceptable, more would be better, but that is the tardeoff for economy. Time is of the essence, but it's not a driving force.

I would like to have a 12V system, maybe limited shore power like an extension cord. I will need running lights. I can use a hand pump, so that saves on energy and maintenance. I do have a 55lb thurst trolling motor to use. I'd go with a little solar if there is room and worth the effort. I have an Icom 706 and several HTs and a marine transceiver, so there is one battery!
I can get by with LED interior light(s). I have a battery operated spot light, 3M candlepower so that can light up any shore. The boat should have a place for radar, maybe later on if I find it useful. I'm not tying tin cake pans on the mast as a reflector to the main bang, but a passive reflection unit is needed.
I'll need to get the radio beacon later on, maybe a cell phone is more appropriate. I will have a notebook computer, GPS and cell phone. If there is room, maybe a small portable TV/boom box and antenna....maybe. I can't think of anymore electrical needs.

Having transportation means going out to eat so I don't need thrity days of food. Maybe, at most a week of rations. The galley can consist of a propane stove and an ice chest. I can get use to a mess kit. She on the other hand may want a pot, pan and utensils. No wine glasses, cans are fine.

The boat does not need to be set up for a fishing expedition, no live wells, a rod holder is more than enough.

Range, given the speed with a small outboard, don't see more than 120 in a day. So, I'd like to carry enough fuel for two days or about 250 miles, not many docks on along some of the rivers. Sailing will certainly add to the range. Let's assume motoring and sailing will be 50/50. I know I will sail more on longer legs, but I'll be motoring around shores and gunkholing. If I get into any significant weather I should be able to motor somewhere and hunker down. I'm interested in an electric powered boat, it may not be feasible for this boat, if I did, I'd have to name it "Limited Capacity".

I probably will need 1,200 lbs capacity, provisions, gear and souls on board, not counting the rigging, motor and fuel. That includes my transportation requirement.

The sail plan needs to be a simple one, probably a gaff or sloop, don't really care since I'll have to learn with it. I think this might be where most salty sailors might have set ways. I don't know the difference between one rig and another, loose footed or a boom, it makes no difference to me, it's a matter of function. For me, the ease of maintenance and rigging is more important to me than being consumed by sailing requirements and speed. I enjoy hiking out as much as anyone at times, but I don't want to spend hours on a line. A little thirll is a good thing to fight boredom. Any boom should go by without having to give warning and the cockpit should sport some kind of bimini or tentage. Wheel steering would be nice, maybe a stick. I prefer a wheel for motoring too. I am willing to adapt to the needs of the boat rather than the other way around, may not sound right, but I can be happy with that.

I need protection from weather and seas. Self bailing would be great. I should be able to go in the ICW and stay dry from man made conditions. I can take my inflatable kayak if I want to get wet. The boat, if not self- righting should be able to be righted by myself, alone without messing with the sail. An automatic small float might be incorporated to assist.

You all are more familiar with my intended stompping grounds than I. The eastern ICW, great lakes, major rivers, including the sewer line of America, the Mississippi. Coastal areas of the gulf, and Florida. There are people that have cirumnavigated with ten foot boats, I'm not going to be one of them. But if I'm spending any real money for this boat, it should be strong enough to do so. The use will be to cruise and haul, a pleasurable work boat. If it were an SUV, it would be a pathfinder, not a M series. If it were a truck, it would be a 4X4 F-150, extended cab, maybe a flatbed. Accomodations would be light weight and durable over plush and comfort, except my berth being an air bed! Speaking of wheeled vehicles, I need to mention again, this boat has to go down the highway behind something no larger than an F-150 with a towing package. I'm not buying another truck just to pull a boat and I'm not leaving it in the water.

While there are beautiful boats that I enjoy, I will be more impressed by a bullet proof, seaworthy machine. This is where most production boats seem to fail. I could use a 26' MacGregor for my purposes, but it is not strong enough. Many dislike the 26X or M for the lack of favorable sailing qualities, it's functional in my mind and I've been on one, but I can push my thumb in on the hull and such boats don't have room to hual! That's a no go.

That's why I'm thinking of a SMALL cat with maybe an extended tail with cargo centered or a long narrow craft.

I have not touched on the engineering aspect or science of the matter, because I don't know. If there is a design that meets these needs and desires, I will be very happy and they can give me a Viking funeral in it. I'd rather be in the water this fall, but I'm afraid if this is what I want, I'll be in the workshop. I'm up to modify an existing boat too, would be easier on me.

GTO, I'm off to search for that herron. Hope through all of these ramblings I have described what I'm looking for. Thanks!

 

A few impressions from your description:

Again, you are listing ranges of options, such as having a head with a shower to a portapottie type.
You want to sail the Gulf, but would like to gunkhole rivers.
You want a liveaboard, but then talk about having it self-righting if it flips over.

You are going to have to make up your mind. You can't list ranges. Either you do want a full up head with a shower OR a portapottie. Either/OR, pick one or the other.

Having been raised on a river, I am sure that a boat appropriate for riverine gunkholing is not really what you want for doing much sailing around the Gulf. Unless you are willing to wait days for proper weather windows.

If you are going to spend alot of time on your boat, you really don't want one that is going to soak all your belongings/equipment every week or two by flipping over. And its amazing how much stuff can simply float away in a few seconds when your boat swamps.

I've attached a picture of three river boats. Quite a range. Guess which is mine?

You must decide what YOU want in your boat. Plain and simple. And each decision you make will eventually determine YOUR boat. No more, no less. Sit down and decide for certain what the boat must do and have. Carry a motorcycle or not? Fullup head or a bucket? Galley or a camp stove? Queen size bed or sleeping bag in the cockpit? Standing/sitting/crawling/slithering headroom? Answer those and a lot more questions and there is your boat.

As Richard suggested, check out the design spiral thread. It's homework time.

And the trimaran is a design of Thomas Firth Jones. There's a website.

 

Yes,

for too much!

 

Fair enough. I think it might be my rambling writin style. I would like a full head, I'll accept a bucket. I know I have to give up alot for the economy I'm seeking and at the level of maintenance I'm willing to do and keep up.

That probably means a shower in the cockpit with a solar bag, gravity flow. It means a bucket and a rag. I will need a soap dish and the luxury will be that it also holds the toothbrush. lol

With either boat that I have mentioned, it's sitting headroom. With a small cat, at 6', I might stand with a slouch, that would be better, if all the other needs can be met and provide such headroom, if not, it's probably sitting. I don't mind crawling into the berth, not slithering, just on hands and knees, would be OK.

Don't need a full galley, a camp stove that sets down into a counter top or is recessed is fine. Under that, an ice box. The deminsions of the ice box/chest are 19" x 19" x 34" high. That's under the propane stove. 8 cubic feet of dry storage space near the galley area. The sink 8" deep, 18" wide, 12" long (front to rear) with 12" to either side of the ice box. Need a folding table at setting heighth 18" x 24" or providing equal space, could be along one side like 12" x 30", no narrower than 12". Like a fire extinguisher within arms length of the stove area to properly season the food. Either two seats facing 24" wide, depth as required with storage below. or 3' seat on one side that buts up to the end of the berth so that the berth can double as a setting area at that table.

Berth, 6' x 5', allow 12" off frame and sitting headroom. Over the berth in the headliner, a recessed light. Storage at least 14"x 18" accessable from the berth. Another storage below the berth, accessible from one end and from the top by lifting the bedding. Room to hand hammock bags near the berth as well. Would like ingress/egress hatch above berth for vent.

An enclosed head with a bucket, particians on both sides of the bucket and at least 32" front to rear and at least a privacy curtain. A small 10" wall sink is sufficient too. Head needs a simple shelf and mirror. Needs storage about 6" deep, 12" wide, 14/15" high, medicine chest type is OK.

All drain plumbing to a 5 gal gray water tank, that can be easily removed to empty. 15 gal fresh water holding, plumbed to the two sinks, both with a manual pump.

Cockpit, simple helm with a wheel at least for motoring. Side seating with storage below. Center deck area 9' clearence in length, three feet wide. Fuel tank below this storage are if a cat, to the stern if a monohull.

Boom clearence with sitting headroom or 48" above aft deck storage area.
Sail, anything simple, short handed and not too high for the bridges. GTO, having your river experience and knowing the routes I'm interested in, you might have a suggestion as to mast height.

Fuel tank 2/10 gal tanks. 4 Battery boxes. 25 HP outboard or less. (Now, if it takes a 50 hp to get the speed, that's my max) Motor wells sufficient for appropriate tools, 4qts of oil. Vented storage for 6 camp stove bottles, can be attached in container on aft deck.

If a small cat: space for a small genset would be good, no, plan on it and add 5 gal of fuel in a can somewhere.

Cabin weather tight. Windows/ports, two on each side at least 60 sq inches each. One window/port forward 120 sq inches or more.

GTO, the boat in the foreground is more of what I'm expecting. I'm thinking either a micro cat under 24' or a monohull, narrow beam, no more than 6' at 24'. Even with high freeboard on a mono, and add a small top I don't see 6'+ headroom unless it looks like a box and sails with the rigging stowed (windage). However, in the cat, adding a cabin over the hulls may allow standing headroom, a big plus. While it is a nice thing, OK, much nicer, it's not worth 3Xs the cost to build a mono.

Is this better?? Thanks again.

 

I have nothing to recommend. In my estimation you are still all over the map in what you want and what you will accept. One this is certain: I've met Sven Yrvind and neither he nor his boats sounds anything like you or the boat you want. Not a criticism, just an observation.

First, there is the sailboat thing. Do you really want or need a sailboat for your intended ramblings. Most people who have sailboats and go that route wind up under power almost all the time with mud daubers building nests under the sail covers. Rivers and the ICW work better with a powerboat, which is why most long time sailors who want to cruise inshore gravitate to them sooner or later. At least, that is what I did.

I keep seeing a cat crop up in you list. Have you ever been on a small cat, sail or power, capable of supporting the kind of material blessings your list also includes? Probably not, since I have never seen one and they may not exist and for good reasons. I think the nicest multihull that comes close may be the Telstar 28 trimaran. Good speed under sail or power and decent accommodations. Because of a more commodious main hull, trimarans may be a better choice than cats for you. Where the motor vehicle would fit is another matter.

On the other hand, there are several powerboats that can meet your needs, other than sailing ability.

As has already been said, the main work that needs to be done is all in your basket. Its hard to pick the right road when you don't know where you are going. The good news is that this is one of the most interesting parts of the whole boating thing. Spend the time and the study. Its worth it.

 

Hi Tom, thanks for your comments. Must be a misunderstanding, I simply admired the boat built by Sven Yrvind, it's capabilities and solid structure. Proving the point that a smaller boat can be seaworthy without being over 40 feet long. I am physically up to an ocean voyage in a boat like his, but I don't, at least now, have the skills and probably won't. So that takes care of that. While I'm not getting the "range" mentioned by GTO after what I thought was a detailed list of will accept. Maybe what I said is not being read carefully.

I have sailed a Hobbie 16, not a real good excuse for what we are talking about here, but enjoyed it, had fun, so maybe I should say I have been on half a cat, LOL...Actually, I was on a commercial cat about 60', it was like moving over the water in my living room. The other was a cat ferry over the English Channel, well, that was something else, it was rough. But I can imagine being in those seas in a smaller mono. While it would have been fun, I probably would not have considered it fun until I got to shore.

Five reasons for a cat; 1. capacity to carry the vehicle without taking up the entire cockpit. 2. Probably standup headroom in the hulls while under the cabin, and 3. More sq. ft. per running ft. 4. Stability, especially at rest compared to a monohull and lastly, economy to power faster than a comprable size boat.

My cat thought is no bigger than 26ft and probably a little smaller would be very good. For me, the smaller the better. Men do not intimidate me, I guess large boats do, lol. I'm not a skilled yachtsman, I admit it. I'm sure I would get better, but I don't want to practice for five years before I take off.

Motoring is a different story, I'm can take off now and I'm comfortable. I was wanting the sail option for only two reasons. Enjoyment and economy again, but I'm finding that sailing is not free, it just appears so. But if it's rigged and ready, it would basically be free initially for this vacation cruise.

I have never sailed a tri, I'm sure it would be exciting and I would like that. I have looked at listings and have seen the Telstar, very nice as I recall. Hauling would be difficult I think.

You may be right, a tri would give me more usable interior space than a micro cat, with only a 3 foot length in the hulls to stand in. Micro cats are Chilly Pepper and Eco 6, these would meet the needs with about 4' added to the stern.

I'm almost thinking about droppin the sail and if I want to sail, I'll go buy another Hobbie, I can buy a decent Hobbie cheaper than I can rig a new boat, even with used parts.

While I have never been in the eastern ICWs, I do know you don't have to be five miles out, you can hug the shoreline. I'm probably not going out in 6' or 8' swells. But when I see the pictures, it doesn't appear to be that rough. I have been in the gulf, I'll go out there and down along the Florida coast. In addition to those highways, I'm going down larger rivers, the Mississippi can get rough! I'll get out on Lake of the Ozarks, that can get rough, especially on weekends! I would treat the Great Lakes as the Atlantic! So those are the roads to travel.

If I could narrow it down, say to 24', a tri, and all the reuirements I posted above (without the bike thing), gee, I could select amoung the possibilities and ask the difference between this boat and that one. I'm trying to back up and look at a bigger picture. What kind of vessel is best suited for the waters I have described that can provide the basic needs I described?

Let me know if I'm incorrect, but seems getting a big tri in a hole on the river and staying in it could be a task, that's the only down side I see. I know I don't get everything, but don't see that I'm asking for much. LOL

I did visit a thread and descibed some of this there, about a 24' freighter canoe with higher freeboard, particially decked, a simple cabin about ten inches high (sitting headroom) a good size bed, a bucket, etc. And with amas, so it would be I guess technically a tri! I guess it depends on how those floats are sunk as to the stability and how it is designed. It could carry a small sail and a sufficient outboard. So, I'm not all about cats.

All of my boating will not be on this little expedition of mine. Eventually, I won't have a bike on or in there, I'll probably be a good size lake (Tablerock is in my backyard). I'd like to do the White and Buffalo Rivers, and the Arkansas, over to Kentucky Lake. These outings would be fine in any boat, probably more fun in a small cat.

It has to be trailerable too. I don't know about hauling a Telstar 28, seems awfully big. I got tired of hauling a 5000+ 24' cuddy!

I guess I'm looking for someone with experience in these waters to say, Bill, you need a micro cat to haul that or that canoe rigged that way would be fine. Or suggest, you need a 27' Morgan and build a rack on the back and get rid of the swim platform....whatever. But even if you don't say that, thanks for your consideration!

 

So your primary requirement is a small multihull.

All I can think of would be something like the Night Heron or one of the Wharram catamarans. It will be up to you to modify them to fit your specific needs.

Good luck!

 

Thanks GTO, I did not understand really what you were referring to as a "range" as I thought I was being specific as to what I was requiring. What I would call the "style" or "design" of a boat would be a category of a cat, monohull or tri. Maybe what I should have asked would be, what category or hull design is best suited for larger rivers, and the ICW that could be trailered?

That would have been much easier I guess. From that I could begin adding requirements and through a process of elimination, arrive at a few to consider. Sorry for the approach.....Thanks

 

Thank you, I see I didn't specify the style or assign a numeric value to my requirements. Your article was very helpful. I see the same thought process applicable to real estate as well. Bear with me here...

Assume you have requirement for a commercial building, you require a traffic count at the desired location. The building is to include office space to be leased to yield a 12% return for the owner over and above the cost of the owner occupied space of 2,000 sq ft. Is a multi story or a one story structure best suited for this requirement?

Initially, I would say, subject to many variables and cost considerations, and at least knowing what city the building was to be located in and being common for the area, a single story may be the first consideration.

I can only suggest starting there since I know the city or general location, what is common for that area and marketability for office space.

Thus, my generalized question was what type of boat should be considered.
I see I didn't need to mention the galley requirements and such, I was giving the color of the carpeting for the zoning requirements perhaps.

I will follow your "Book of Requirements" after more consideration hopefully to provide the opportunity for a more analytical assessment rather than just a gut opinion based on experience of the areas intended to be used. Thanks again.

 

Take care with your plans building such a small cat! It will definetively not bear with your bike!
Cats are very weight sensitive! And a 26ft Cat hull provides hardly enough space to get both feet on the floor, not much more.

Regards
Richard

 

OK, so as a professional, you're say that extending the aft deck of a Eco 6 or a Chili Pepper or even a Slider with appropriately sized hulls is impossible or impracticle?!? And that a freighter canoe equiped with folding outriggers and a small cabin top falls in the same realm?!?

OK, thank you Richard, I will take your expertise under advisement and consider dropping the sailing requirement.