Worse design

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by gonzo, Jan 26, 2010.

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  1. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    frank smith Senior Member

    I did not take it as an insult at all. That boat cartoon is an example of what an
    ugly bad design can be created rapidly with a design program . Just a joke .
     
  2. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Well said, Teddy.
     
  3. Easy Rider
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: NW Washington State USA

    Easy Rider Senior Member

    Frank,
    I fell in love w a joke?? Good thing I can laugh at myself. I really do like the fwd end of your joke.

    Easy
     
  4. Loveofsea
    Joined: Jan 2007
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    Location: Southern California

    Loveofsea New Member

    Here is a bread-crumb trail of one of my favorite trips. Two nights at San Nicolas and the last night at the Cortes Bank before the 100 mile run home :)

    Here is a map of the bight:

    http://www.diveboat.com/map_of_great_escape_dive_destinations.shtml



    Sheepy, untill you make runs like this year around in an open 19 ft home built skiff with a tiller outboard, you have no business insulting me cubscout :D

    BTW, i see the picture of your boat--I have no idea what it's like to drive a boat from the comfort and safety of a wheelhouse :rolleyes: And what's that in front? A glass window?? Personally I prefer to run completely exposed, with the wind and seas in my face :cool:

    One more thing gentlemen: The bow pully on the skiff has never seen green water despite all of your false assertions--and despite the fact that there is 54 gallons of fuel way up in the bow. I would never have the confidence to make these runs if the hull had any flawed handling characteristics whatsoever.

    (the bow has a sharp SST edge that splits the water and the splash rail creates enough lift to keep the bow from going under--as it should be :)

    Be safe & and be kind
     

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  5. Sheepy
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    Sheepy Junior Member

    I could easily say until you make year round runs such as I do you have no business insulting me, my seagoing experience clearly outweighs yours and now you are struggling to make yourself look credible, tho I suspect your credibility is already minimal to non-existent around here anyway.

    Well let's see how about all those outboard powered aluminium tinnies that every dealer told me I wouldn't be able to damage yet everyone was damaged. How you ask? By using them as surfboards on bars. So I believe I have plenty of experience running seas in small open boats, more than you anyway.

    Perhaps you missed the part about being a professional fisherman? What on earth makes you think a wheelhouse equals safety? Glass breaks. I know of one trawler around here that had its wheelhouse moved 6 inches from rough seas, another that had its wheelhouse completely removed.

    You say you have been out in 50+ knots of wind and not taken any green water? 10 ft seas at 6 seconds is not even close to 50+ knots! take a look here and educate yourself. Plainly you are lying.Period.

    Now by your own admission you have most of the weight in the forward 1/3 of the hull and your "sst lifting strake" creates exaggerated lift at the stern - this equals bow heavy. Your bow is roughly 3 feet high. Now let's put this into perspective with a picture of 50+ knots

    [​IMG]

    Now what do we see here? Sea wave height 9-12M (29-41ft) very high waves with long overhanging crests.

    So a 3 foot high bow heavy flat bottom skiff is going to climb over these waves?
     
  6. Jeff
    Joined: Jun 2001
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    Location: Great Lakes

    Jeff Moderator

    < Moderator note: A few posts have been removed which contained personal attacks as per the forum rules; also I feel it is too rude to hotlink another designer's design, especially without explanation or their knowledge, into this thread. It's one thing if someone puts their design out for critique & criticism here and asks for feedback, but it would get us into trouble quickly to start picking people's current designs without their knowledge or consent, so please stick to details that are quantifiably bad in specific ways, or designs or design aspects / details / ideas that have been proven bad by experience & history, things that we can learn from. >
     
  7. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    "Macho, macho, macho man....":p:p:p

    I think that's my new favorite silly post. It's like a weekend dirt-biker sneering at a long-haul trucker for having a seat and a windshield.
     
  8. Loveofsea
    Joined: Jan 2007
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    Location: Southern California

    Loveofsea New Member

    Jeff

    I'm curious that no one challenged me when i said that if a dolefin or other such winged device attached to the anti-cav plate improves performance, that reveals a flaw in the hull. My assertion was that the lower unit is for propulsion and steering exclusively, the hull should do all the rest, correctly..

    Sheepy, i forgot to mention the advantage that having a tiller has when running in seas. With a tiller you can go lock to lock steering in a second or less. The quicker (rougher) the seas, the more important it is to have a quick responce at the rudder. The tiller also provides for the most artculate actuation of the throttle. When it gets rough and you are running on the edge, if you can drop 30 RPM at the right instant, you avoid a pothole ;)

    With a tiller you have control of not only the yaw but the pitch. With a lever throttle, you may never even know how much pitch is actually yours...
     
  9. Sheepy
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    Sheepy Junior Member

    Ok i'll challenge your assertion - You say that the hull should do all the work of keeping the boat right? Yes? Then how do you explain your lifting strakes at the back of your skiff, wouldn't they be doing the same thing as ones on a motor? So by your own theory your hull is flawed.

    You just don't get it do you? A 19 foot boat in 29 to 41 foot seas it's just not possible to not take green water over any part of it regardless of how good you think you are. It doesn't matter if you have instant steering or throttle control. You would be having trouble standing in 50+ knots of wind in an open boat on land let alone on an almost out of control ocean.
     
  10. Loveofsea
    Joined: Jan 2007
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    Loveofsea New Member

    To answer your first question, the strake is a design feature integral to the hull, not the lower unit...


    The bow could easily be burried in those seas... white water contains too much air--air mixed with water doesn't weigh enough to support the weight of the boat at that critical moment, no way the skiff could survive weather like that.

    Here is why the lifting strake is just as important for being there as it is for getting there :)
     

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  11. Obsession
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Obsession Junior Member

    I don't particularly like the look of anti-ventilation plate "hydrofoils"; I wouldn't choose a boat with one if another were available equal on all other counts and performance without, but re: your theory that the hull has to do it all:

    Thousands of boats use sterndrives and outboards with power trim to control their trim angle for different speeds & loads. And they use the changeable thrust angle to plane. It's worked for 40 years, I don't have a problem with using mechanical articulation vs. form alone to control trim at different speeds or with different number of people aboard.

    Also the prop choice is already used to control the amount of bow lift.

    My objections to the aftermarket "foil" are:
    1.) they pick up seaweed
    2.) they can add drag
    3.) they put more stress on parts that weren't necessarily designed to take it

    But in some cases you also have the ob mounted high enough that the added fin comes out of the water at full speed, thus no big drag concern.

    Can it be an advantage that the angle of the add-on lift foil can change with the powertrim angle of the outboard whereas a hull modification cannot?

    I've also heard it said a hundred times that good boats don't need trim tabs. But a heck of a lot of people prefer having them, to have the control themselves and to allow uneven loading as guests sit where they want. As long as they're not adding drag all the time, I like having them for light use. (but they're up all the way when going at wot and mounted 3/4" above the hull bottom so out of the water at wot)

    And I think 99% of the outboard hydrofoil addons are for aftermarket adaptation of a hull that was designed for one thing/power/speed being used for another. That might point to a flaw in the buyer's pocketbook not being able to afford the ideal hull & power for their needs as much as the design that's fitted with them.
     
  12. flyinwall
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Location: Cooroy Queensland Australia

    flyinwall Junior Member

    So the seals have somewhere to rest!!!! :p :p :p
     
  13. Obsession
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Location: Chicago, IL, USA

    Obsession Junior Member

    Far out - I didn't even notice the seal in the picture. Better than an asian carp!

    And now back to discussion of the extraneous (or not so extraneous) bits that are attached to the boat... permanently... :)
     
  14. Easy Rider
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Easy Rider Senior Member

    Love,
    This isn't a black and white deal. Any small RIB is a bad design without the cavitation plate (Dole fin or whatever). It's almost true they make a bad design workable w the fin. Perhaps ther'e all just over powered. Love .. you need to move your fuel tanks around to make your boat perform acceptably well when you change directions and that in itself may indicate there may be something wrong with the design. Basically I believe a boat that requires weight shifting while underway or trim tabs (fixed or moveable) while being loaded responsibly must be to some degree a bad design.
    Relative to your open boat and tiller comments most all people that live down the bay and commute by skiff do so w out cabins or windshields. Sure it gets real cold at 25 knots in an open skiff in January in Alaska but the alternative of trying to see through a frozen or very wet windshield is even less desirable. I know people who have done this for 25 yrs, year around and won't even consider a windshield. But Love you better be careful w that tiller .. you can flip a skiff in a heartbeat with it.

    Easy
     

  15. nautique210
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: GA, USA

    nautique210 wake master

    Ugliest boat ever. For me only a boat that dont float would be worse.
     

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