Wood as a Boatbuilding Material

Discussion in 'Materials' started by gonzo, Oct 30, 2003.

  1. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Admin Note: We split this thread from another topic where it originally started. Please forgive the fact that the initial postts might seem a bit out of place without the comments which sparked them, but we felt this was a good place to begin a topic which will no doubt continue to grow into a much longer discussion.
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    I build and design in any appropiate material. Wood, fiberglass, metal, cement are all equal in my eyes. They all have a place in boatbuilding. My techniques are eclectic too. I believe that worshipping the "old masters" is foolish. They did the best they could with the available knowledge of the time. We know better about construction and materials now. Antiques are fine, but I don't understand how a boat that is a small percentage of the original is considered old. I have read WB through the years and like it better now. The ony problem I see with threads multiplying that are not marine related, is that it will dilute the content of the forum. Perhaps the people writing are interested in boats, however, they don't write about it. Topics drift into each other. That makes them interesting.
     
  2. Bob Smalser
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    Bob Smalser Junior Member

    Well gents...I'm new here too.

    Grew up in a commercial wood boat yard then took a sabbatical for 30 years doing something else...and now back to my roots. Run my own sawmill and treefarm and have some meager skills as a joiner.

    When getting back into woodenboats last spring I posted a question here that didn't get much play...so I eventually found the WBF and met the likes of Fleming and MMD.

    Back in the bad old days of a generation ago there were no shortage of crusty and selfish...but true master...craftsmen who saw us minimum-wage kids as either a threat to their livelihood or a weary burden they weren't being paid extra for....and wouldn't teach you squat. That still occurs today in all the trades where you'll not find many old pros going out of their way to help do-it-yourselfers. The "full-employment-for-my-industry-syndrome."

    Fleming, MMD and others have spent entire working lifetimes as card-carrying shipwrights and designers.... if they'll let me suck their brains dry, I'll not pass up the opportunity...I feel privileged to listen.

    Also..while open-minded, I build in wood because growing or buying the log then milling and curing the building stock yourself, is a whole lot cheaper and more rewarding than buying store-bought man-made materials.
     
  3. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Have you ever done a cost analysis of the labor involved growing trees, sinking, milling, etc. and then building a boat in an outmoded way? I think there are cheaper way to build. As to the rewarding part, that's a spiritual profit that has no money value.
     
  4. Bob Smalser
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    Bob Smalser Junior Member

    "Have you ever done a cost analysis of the labor involved growing trees, sinking, milling, etc. and then building a boat in an outmoded way? I think there are cheaper ways to build."

    You betcha! :D

    Labor is free when you're on your own time and thoroughly enjoying yourself. I hear some city folks actually pay big money to do what I do every day out in the open air.

    And you can pay for the boat's hardware with the bucks you save on that gym membership ya don't need any more. Ya lift 3-6000lbs from knees to shoulders every day when running that mill. No need to pay for letting your trousers out every year, either.

    Not to mention that fairing a cedar hull with late Uncle Paul's old Stanley 113 compass plane while thinking about his legacy and listening to Canada Geese honk in the distance....is scads more pleasant than grinding glass with airsander, earplugs, respirator and coveralls taped shut.

    "Please don't throw me into that briar patch, Brer Rabbit!"
     
  5. trouty

    trouty Guest

    Yebbutt Yebbutt yebbutt

    Deys all be blow boaters ain't dey?:confused:

    Dang it, us Fuji n Gruber types are stink boat bilge rats - we don't wants no blow boaters 'ere do we?;) :D

    What if they spot the potatoe moonshine Fuji's got brewing in the keel cooled still in the bilge?..will we have to share it wif em skipper? :confused:

    Ye gads this could git serious, man the guns fella's....I sees blow boaters closin fast off the port bow, prepare to taks evasive action and return fire!. :p

    Wood :rolleyes: ...who in their right mind builds a boat outta wood these days!:rolleyes: havent these guys heard a the greenhouse effect?:D ;)

    Sheesh whats the world commin too - if the good lordhadda wanted us to build boats outta wood - he wouldna invented the smelter and bauxite now woulda he? :D :cool:

    A Dunno - a little Coronal Mass Ejection from the Sun, and the whole wood boats forum goes up in smoke - dats de trubble with wood boats - burns up at the first sign a sunspots! :D

    Welcome indeed fellers, no one here knows much bout wood or boats - you'll fit right in!;)

    Cheers!
     
  6. Bob Smalser
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    Bob Smalser Junior Member

    Blowboaters?

    Oh...you mean them toy sailboats?

    Maybe someday...how 'bout scruffy old work boats in the meantide?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. mmd
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    mmd Senior Member

    Not a car-topper, is it, Bob? Beefy fellow - sorta looks like the Caterpillar D-9 of punts. <lol>
     
  8. Bob Smalser
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    Bob Smalser Junior Member

    Wellll....D-2 anyway.....raises sunken cedar logs from the beaver ponds and will live a hard life. Thought I'd take a pic before she gets all scuffed up.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I apprenticed using a lot of hand tools. It served me well. I see many laborers that don't understand the underlying concepts of the power tools. Somehow, it goes too fast and noisy to get it. I also agree that it is more pleasurable to push a plane than a planer. At times though, it is time to pay for the shop's overhead and other bills. Power tools help with that.
     
  10. Dave Fleming
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    Dave Fleming Old Geezer

    When I made the 180 degree shift in lifestyle and began my apprenticeship the last thing on my mind was money.


    Didn't expect to get rich and I haven't been disappointed about that.:D

    Kept food on the table albiet barely sometimes. Now retired with no bills to speak of and with a modicum of means to live a reasonable life. Things could be a hell of a lot worse.

    All my relatives in the world of stocks and bonds left this mortal plane at an age way too early. But, their wives sure live a very comfortable life.

    Me, I'm still here and bantering with SWIMPAL every day.

    Better'n a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, or so says I


    PAX
    ;) ;)
     
  11. Oyster

    Oyster Guest

    Have you ever done a cost analysis on turning down people with big bucks and no place to spend it, when they come to you to build a boat with a lot of garbage on it, and it takes two years to build it, employing 10 people full time, and supporting a community of generations of repeat builders. A fool and his money soon departs to our little nitch corner of the world.
    Nice blow by you boat.
    [​IMG]
    :p
    Quote by Gonzo:
    "They did the best they could with the available knowledge of the time. We know better about construction and materials now."

    Reply:
    I wonder what many founders of the early evolution of modern day boats like John Rybovich, Allan and Buddy Merritt, Jim Smith, Fred Kirk, Pembroke Huckins, Jack Hargrave, Tom Fexas, Burger Yachts, Cheoy Lee Yachts, and the likes would say to the thoughts that they used what liimited brains and resourse they had and did the best that they could do, to the ones of today's computer generated boat?

    One thing these folks had in common was that they had to deal with the customer, one on one, and from year to year, service the boats they built. Don't you think for a minute, that this doesn't change how boats are built, and the performance that these boats when they hit the water, the first time. We did not see the problems of so many fiberglass hulls, and all of the spun-offs plastic fantastics, that are on the market today, being designed by paper hanging engineers.

    I had the fortunate advantage to work one on one with many of these older fellows designs, making stuff work and fit. I evloved from strip plank cedar to kevlar, Airex, vacumn bagging laminate hulls, and many of the foam cores, because of the demands for one off boats that worked the first time, without the problems of solid wood hulls.

    A hull might be shaped like a boat, coming from a CAD drawing, but between this step, to a floating object that has all the bugs worked out of it, can be a year or more, in production build hulls, just because of engineers hardheadiness. I made my lifes' work fixing these problems from drawing board to float test. But taking what I know, from these mistakes, made it possible to build one-offs, with the knowledge gained from an open mind to these early pioneers, the ones noted up above. Thank you. Off topic? No mre than all the rest of profiles Proud of my accomplishments, over the last 35 years? Yep, was a great buffer between designers and buyers. And after all said and done, still like a cold moulded hull for performance and longivity. Boats are last longer, internally, because of the proper thinking before application and construction.
     
  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Hey Oyster, that photo brings a lot of good memories. I've lofted and built many of those. Mainly designed by Peanut. Is he still around? What I meant by the best the could do, is that it was the cutting edge of technology at the time. However, as time passes we experiment and find better or more efficient ways. I worked with the Tillet brothers, and the boats they built in the 90's were different from the original Carolinian of '62. I believe that using the previous knowledge is wise, but to worship the "ancients" and refuse to improve is foolish.
     
  13. Oyster

    Oyster Guest

    Gonzo, you won't find worship to be the name of the game. You will find a true love and passion, a deep desire for more than just a floating object on the water. People live their lives to create something with personality. I am only saying that folks that show affection to wooden boats, are looking for more than just an object. Foolish pleasure as you may look at it.

    Not all people like blonds and corvettes, the standard craze of high intensity people. If you really look at the whole boating thing, none of it makes any sense, from what is spent on boats. You talk about cost analysis, try figuring the cost per hour of use for any given boat. If a person spends even 100 hours on the water, no matter what kind of boat it is, then he or she is about maxed out for the year.

    You speak of the Tillets, Omi was the person responsible for evolution of the huge flared bow. The old boats are truely not the new boats. The amount of speed, that is gotten out of the new boats, is double of the older ones. The bottoms have had to change and the keel are all shaved down or gone, to make them steer better in the nasty stern quartering sea.

    It s hard to explain the feeling one gets from cutting ribs and frames. But those days are few and far between, now. There are so many new ways, that have made building one -offs, so efficent, and use less qualified staff, that it is a breeze doing it. A 50' boat can be built in a winter, paying for the layups of winter, between fishing seasons, that would not happen if a buyer desired a pure fiberglass hull. This fills a void that exist in the market. But along the guildlines of modern technology, CAD and CNC routers, have allowed for changes of hulls, without having to draw new plans. The expense is just not there, for the smaller builder. We have also been able to build smaller hulls, more cost efficent, by cutting down on the lofting time, which is pure down time. NO ribs and frames, no heavy timber, no requirements of specialty tools, hardware for bolting together, and one major factor for the owner is insurance on these type boats now.

    Thes hulls cost less to operate than fiberglass hulls with more efficent horespower to weight ratio, because of the difference in weight of the finished hull and the need for the larger engines. The need for speed and efficency, makes a difference in areas of the long runs to the canyons up north and in the Gulf of Mexico.

    Women play a big role in boating these days. Custom interiors to fit the tastes of women, is why many men go with these boats. Cabinetry cannot be easily changed in production or semi production fiberglass hulls as easy as one -off hulls, So even though people may think it is worship, there is a need and a place for wood. But in line with this, it takes a builder that has the love or worship for working in this area, to do a good job, for the amount it costs and the time frame involved to do a "wooden hull" boat.

    Cost analysis, is not an issue, not really, with buyers that look in this direction. And further more, only a small percentage of people that are redoing an older hull, look at the costs as being the determining factor in taking on a project to restore a boat with age on it.

    I use to have a sign in the shop saying "Boating is a mental illness, and I am the phychiatrist" I think sometimes people, that go to a phychiatrist, go just for company and companionship. It soothes the soul. Thats all I think a pleasure craft is, IMHO.
     
  14. Dave Fleming
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    Dave Fleming Old Geezer

    People excuse me but...

    Are we all not here because of our AVOCATION?

    I have no desire to debate the relative merits of one material over another nor one technology over another.
    I respect each BUT favour one.

    Am I making sense here?

    :confused:
     

  15. mmd
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    Location: Bridgewater NS Canada

    mmd Senior Member

    Yup. Different horses for different courses, and and embrace the future but don't neglect your history.
     
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