WishBone Sailing Rig

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Aug 17, 2003.

  1. jop
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: france

    jop New Member

    carbon fiber wishbones

    I own a tanton 43 and wish to change my wishbones for carbon fiber's ones, i have been told that the Nonsuch 354S use to have it, can anyone help me to locate the manufacturer
    Many thanks
    jop
     
  2. Kojii
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    Location: Ensenada, BCN

    Kojii All is remodelling

    We did 35 degree snap rolls up the pacific coast in this boat (shakedown), spending some hours in the trough. I would have to say the effect of the mast inertia would seem a distant third when compared to angle of attack and speed. On a related comment - Davy Jone's Locker is littered with the bones of excellent sailors. I have sailed on an Open 60 of early vintage in enough wind to provide a sensation similar to that of the Laser I learned to sail on Lake Washington. I understand clearly how these big sleds came to be declared "unsafe". However good a sailor's skills, there is no substitute for a sturdy, sea-kindly vessel that can keep a mere mortal afloat, even after we make a tragic error. Slocum survived not simply because of this skill, which is undisputable, but because his vessel, when submerged off the coast of South America, came back up to the surface so he could climb back down out of the rigging.
     
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  3. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Attached Files:

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  4. Kojii
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    Kojii All is remodelling

    No spreaders - how they gonna do that?

    Brian, any idea on materials in the legs of that mast/shroud? A la modulus of elasticity. Like the hot tub or did they just fill the cockpit with water? K
     
  5. Nordic Cat
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    Nordic Cat Senior Member

    4 "masts" plus 8-10 stays/shrouds, as well as those massive foils at the top has me thinking about the immense weight and windage of the rig.

    Maybe the designer never tried calculating the windage. A 12 mm shroud of 1 m length generates around 450 grams of drag at 20 m/s ( about 1 lb of drag at 40 knots).

    The cw or wind resistance co-efficient for the projected area of the masts is normally calculated at between 1.0 and 1.1, compare this to a well designed car that is around 0.24 or lower.

    He would be better off using a traditional Ballestron type rig with unstayed masts.

    Just my 2 cents worth

    regards

    Alan
     
  6. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I think it is just a concept drawing at this time.
     
  7. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    But here comes another entry to this bi-pod mast idea.
     

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  8. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Photos of Relentless

    Here are some detail photos of the taller rig of these two vessels...I had misplaced them until recently.

    Note the use of shrouds along with the bi-pod legs.
    And their termination in line with a pivot point of the rig.

    The mast appears to be forward canted about 7 degrees
     

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  9. Kojii
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Location: Ensenada, BCN

    Kojii All is remodelling

    Relentess has been topped

    The new owner of Relentless found the performance in heavy winds to be unbalanced and has shortened the mast (to just above the notch) and canted it aft about the same it was canted forward and put a whole new rig on it (double furler with wishbone boom) after adding the skeg-hung rudder. Initial sail tests in the harbor seem promising - longer foot, lower CE, less compression on mast. More to follow I am sure. The experiment continues...Kojii
     
  10. Kojii
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Kojii All is remodelling

    Brian,

    Best wishes for the new year. I have made some contact with - of all things - Mr Greenway's former bus driver. This man knew Fred and his wife very well and as he was a longtime tug boat operator he too knows boats.
    We will be meeting soon I think to discuss what he knows of Fred and Orca, but he already been stated that Orca went around the Horn from West to East and came back through the canal. Heresay at this pt. More as we get it. Wooden boat forum has interesting discussion on bendy masts and strength (i.e. resistance to failure). I think Fred was impressed with curves for shock absorbing abilities. My experience so far is that he was right. Not sure if it is catenary. But, as expensive as the curved ones are to build - try replacing a straight one. May eat these words some day, if so I hope with a little honey on them. Cheers, K
     
  11. gar37bic
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    Location: Bellingham MA

    gar37bic Junior Member

    Brian et al,
    I believe this vessel is presently on the hard at Shaw's Boat Yard in Dighton MA - down the hall from mine. I am told the builder/owner sailed it around the world (singlehanded?) at least once. He has died, and his widow has put the boat up for sale.

    I am wondering if I should be interested in this, or the Manta Clipper 34, which is also for sale near me. I'm looking for a liveaboard-caribbean boat, in the long run I might want to go farther.

    IIRC it is 45 feet long. I was told that the hull is cold-molded wood. It has a shallow draft wing keel - to my untrained eye, something like a newer Catalina. I'm guessing at a six foot draft. It has a number of minor features that I have never seen on another hull - a sawtooth SS strip on the bow at the water line, a small black bulb (sonar?) on a stem hung from the bottom, just ahead of the keel, and a two-part rudder (steel?) - like two foils one after the other, at slightly opposing angles of attack.
     
  12. globaldude
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Location: Whangarei New Zealand

    globaldude court jester

    Kolika

    Hello Gar37BIC , hey just looking for any reference to Kolika - yacht in Dighton on hard - and was happy to see your post of her .
    I have just placed a contract to purchace her and will fly over on the 5th of May to inspect her :). I remember seeing your towns name on the map while looking for Dighton .
    Sounds like you have looked her over yourself . I didn't know about the " saw tooth SS bit on the bow .I think the owner , a Mr Klimmek, was a very clever guy and his attention to detail shows in the photos I've seen .

    I've visited these forums for some years now and having a 50' steel hull in my workshop was intending to finish her then go cruising .
    Old story , not enough years left to do all the things I'd like to do so, given the present hard times, its meant it's far cheaper to buy than build .

    Acording to the map, it looks like it's only 30 odd miles from Boston [ where I fly into ] to Dighton and I imagine I could get a bus to there ??.
    I'd appreciate your local knowledge as to the best way to get there ??.
    Perhaps you'd like to look her over with me ?, I'm the kinda guy who likes to bounce things off of my friends when venturing out so as to get constructive critisism .
    your thoughts please . --- somewhere here I think we are able to mail directly so as to not bore fellow members with non thread talk .
    I'd like to say though , that should all go well and we complete the sale, I'd be real happy to give my thoughts and impresions of how this rig behaves in various conditions as we intend sailing her back down the east coast through Panama back to our Pond . pete , New Zealand.
     
  13. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Been away from all boating subjects for awhile (sabbatical). The two boats I remember discussing mostly were Orca and Relentless. Both were on the west coast if I remember correctly. So what is this vessel that is in MA?? Any pictures??

    Be interesting to hear these stories.
     
  14. globaldude
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    globaldude court jester

    Photos and web site for Kolika - A frame rig .

    Hello Brian, we have talked before but it was years ago :) , below is an address for the home page of Kolika .
    In looking her over I would be very interested in your opinion on the rudder and it's posible advantages/ disadvantages as I value your opinion having read your posts now for some years --- and Yipster , if you read this :) -- [you guys don't always see eye to eye but it makes for thought provoking reading ]
    The late Mr Klimmek was , in my opinion, a very clever man and his attention to detail shows all over the boat ---- Rudder trim tab is able to be linked to wind trim tab [ no obtrusive wind self steering gear at the rear means easy boarding and dive ladder there now] , or GPS plotter . rear edge of pilot house has hand holds right across it [and right throughout the boat for that matter ] .
    Yacht with design speed of 7.5knts has cort around prop - should be more eficient right , at least more protected in the waterways I'll be sailing.

    Here's a goodie , the saloon table is set higher to allow better view for seated people but also allows big LOW draws under the [ now raised ] sole to stow those heavy goods such as canned foods or perhaps heavy hand tools .She has a shower/bath the lenght of which tucks under a hanging locker [ I think ] .
    I see now from another post above that he has a " saw tooth SS edge right on the water line " I imagine for cutting floating lines -- good and real bad there eh !?.
    I've no doubt I will find many more interesting features when I fly over to look her over shortly .Kolika was the last of several boats he had built and was , in his opinion, " the best of a lifetime collecting ideas for the ultimate cruiser " .
    There's no such thing as the perfect boat - man - woman - horse [ I've owned 9 ] we all have good and average points and we live with our compramises eh .
    I look forward to your opinion or that of any other member :)

    http://www.sail-works.com/KOLIKA/index.html
     

  15. gar37bic
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    gar37bic Junior Member

    Globaldude, I just now saw that you had posted back in March, and were going to see the boat. I'm sorry I didn't get the message - I will have to check to see if I am getting email notifications. I would have enjoyed seeing the boat with you. I also know (from the boatyard that 'someone from New Zealand came to look at the boat' a while back but didn't buy it. Was that you?

    I took a good look at the boat this weekend. It's a very complex boat from a systems perspective - electrics, hydraulics, mechanical, you name it. I think of it as an "engineer's boat". That turns a lot of people off, and rightly so - more systems means more maintenance, more hanging upside down in the bilge in the middle of a gale. But that's OK with me - I'm a geek anyway, more familiar with that stuff than with the boat itself! :) My interest is as a liveaboard sailor, and this boat has capacity and durability - and it's more ocean-capable than I am. So I'm thinking of making an offer. I'd like to know what you didn't like about the boat.
     
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