Wingmast - how much kick is needed?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by sigurd, May 20, 2016.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    noggle

    Sigurd, not sure this can be effectively applied to your rig. I found out about it from Eric Sponberg and it was invented years ago by Nat Herreshoff. It's used on a wing mast/boom combination to automatically set the relationship of the boom to the wingmast-30 degrees was suggested by Eric for my Test Model Rig. I didn't want to have a separate rotation control and so the version of the noggle on my boat is not (easily) adjustable but it could be made easy on a fullsize version.
    I needed a massive amount of vang for my huge squarehead and this worked well as I learned more about it. The wingmast is 6% and the rig not as high aspect as yours.
    The pictures here don't show the complete rigging but the boom/ noggle is fixed on the SS rail(pivots but doesn't slide) and the downhaul comes thru the hole in the noggle.

    UPDATE: note that the device I used on my Test Model is a gooseneck/noggle combination

    Click on image for best view:
     

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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
  2. sigurd
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    sigurd Pompuous Pangolin

    Looks like a very nice execution, thanks Doug. Was planning on doing the same (limiting over-rotation) with ropes.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    noggle

    Thanks!
     
  4. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    But way too complex and too much junk for what is a simple and basic operation.
    KISS - as Dick said.
    Nothing much simpler than a ring and parrot beak and a couple of ropes and cams.
    Also 30 degrees is not enough rotation for some conditions.
    Also again, we're not talking about toy boats operated from the shore by buttons and levers.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    noggle

    =====================
    I don't think the inventor, Nat Herreshoff used "buttons and levers". You probably can't get simpler than a well designed noggle........
     
  6. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    As Gary said, why use something so complex? Thousands of multi and dinghy sailors have been working on levers for years, and they've found much simpler and very effective ways to work them.

    You have to be able to alter the angle of rotation on a mast easily, quickly and often. A "noggle" doesn't allow the crew to alter the rotation from leg to leg, or to alter the rotation easily as the wind strength changes. It would not appear to be all that easy to fit a good adjustment system; apart from anything else, the noggle appears to have a much shorter lever and therefore significantly higher loads, which would be difficult to adjust quickly.
     
  7. sigurd
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    sigurd Pompuous Pangolin

    Gary, Comparisigurd need moar numbers (if you want ofcourse)!


    I swear Doug, you did NOT cast that little 'noggle holder' out of metal?!!?
     
  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    The windsurfer sails that are currently built for top-end racing appear to have a smaller luff pocket than those we had a long time ago. As you say, some fast sails have a medium size luff pocket. If double luffs were so efficient, all fast sails would have big double luffs.

    I'm not saying that double luffs are slow, just that years of experience on the water indicates that double luffs do not give the same advantage in reality as they do in some claims and lab tests.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    noggle

    =====================
    I found it going thru the Annapolis Performance Sailing Catalog. Insignificant weight on the Fire Arrow....
     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Sigurd these are the pictures Eric sent me with the noggle set up on a half a wishbone boom for a full size dinghy or cat. This one doesn't appear to be adjustable but it doesn't seem to be a big deal to make it adjustable very simply.
    click on image-
     

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  11. sigurd
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    sigurd Pompuous Pangolin

    CT, I'd love to see those lab test reports.

    EDIT: Doug, cool. What are the 'hounds' for? (not real hounds I presume)
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    What is a potato boat?
     
  13. sigurd
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    sigurd Pompuous Pangolin

    Norway was a land of mostly only waterways, due to the mountains everywhere. Long country, moving potatoes they used boats that were shaped like potatoes, lots of volume, easy pace. Used those boats for other cargo as well ofcourse. Square sails.
     
  14. sigurd
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    sigurd Pompuous Pangolin

    CT, I found just what you were after, quite the treatise on double luff aerodynamics by Tspeer. Interesting!

    powerfoil sails
     

  15. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Sid's rig:
    11.5 metre x 500mm wing mast
    8.8 m to hounds
    lower sidestays hounds 5 m, connects to main shrouds block and tackle
    spectre 3mm rigging
    sail luff 11.35 metre, foot 2.1 metre, square top maybe 1 metre, have forgotten.
    No headsails just a reacher with 3.2 m foot, can carry it to maybe 55-60 degrees. North Sails.
     

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