Will I become crazy and build a caramaran??? Windsong, Coral Cove 31, Pahi 31

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by valery gaulin, Apr 2, 2017.

  1. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    You have to compare apples with apples. The price of a given boat is irrelevant in isolation.

    Here in Australia if you compare the actual sale prices of the same design built in foam vs ply there is a massive difference. Typically a ply boat will achieve materials cost if it's well built to plan and in very good condition. A foam boat will achieve a lot more and be easier to sell.

    I cannot comment on other markets, this is the one I watch most closely. Likewise I can't comment on materials cost overseas but here foam poly is barely any dearer than ply. In the size of boats I am interested in, 20 - 30', foam might add a few thousand to the hull cost but it will add $10k or more to resale in otherwise like for like boats.

    Having said that a boat that's finished is worth a lot more than one which isn't, so if it's a choice between finishing a build in ply over running out of time/money/enthusiasm in foam then build in ply.

    As has been said so many times build the smallest boat you can be happy with, because so many builds get abandoned...
     
  2. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    2 things.

    I was suggesting building duo to get feel for what is involved in building in ply, and building a boat from scratch rather than restoring one. Also you'll need a dinghy probably sooner or later and duo is a great little boat. If your confident about what's involved in building this boat and building in ply vs other options then that's fine :)

    There is probably very little difference in hulls alone. Remember they are about 1/3rd the total cost. The Windsong rig might be a bit dearer, or not. In my experience Wharrams look cheap quick and easy to build at a glance but when you get right into the plans and details they are very inefficient to build. So you end up with less boat for your money and time. That's MAY be the case for the pahi rig as well although I have not studied it.

    Assuming you have a list of things you want on your boat here the gap will close more. Lets say you definitely want a head rather than a chemical toilet. That will cost the same. Lets say you choose the same radio, chartplotter, charts, depth sounder. Similar outboard and anchor. Same number of beds. These are all significant costs and in boats around the same size, assuming you make the same choices, there will be little variation. Obviously if you build a 40' boat the anchor engine number of bathrooms, permanent showers, berths, everything gets dearer... but in a boat around 30' these costs will be similar.

    I must emphasis the point though, your being very sensible looking in this size. These are doable projects. So many people undertake huge boats and never finish them. It's sad to watch but people make the same mistake over and over. IMO a boat around 30' is a very wise choice...
     
  3. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    Thank you for your input guzzis3. I think I know what i takes to build a boat, energy wise and time wise. I know because I did built a small 29 foot x 12 foot aluminum trimaran all riveted, no welding. Actually i should post some picture! And i also renovated a 1973 Grampian 26 that I finished last year. Well very very close to being done, just little trim inside around the window, adding an inverter, curtain, etc. Anyway I am already sailing with it.

    Project size I feel that around 30foot is the bigest I can do on my own and see the end of it!!! I agree with I have seen way too many boat project dying in someone backyard! This is so depressing. I am actually really scared that the same stiry could happen to me!!!

    I am probably fine with my Grampain 26 but I want another project!!!

    You are right that plywwod epoxy boat don't seam to have a very good reasle value. I think any home built boat have a bad resale value. Foam could be a good option, but it seams alot harder to repair if needed. Do you have a suggestion for a brand of foam that I xan look at because there seams to be so many different one.

    Plywood altought if it was not for rot potential rot problem. Is the best compromise for strenght, weight, stiffness, etc. This is the reason why I was asking if anybody used pressure treated plywood. It would solve the only drawback of wood! I checked online and it seams that epoxy can be used wirhout any problem on pressure treated but i cant find many builder that actually used pressure treated. Maybe they are scared and they stick with what they know!!!
     
  4. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Mr Woods has some notes on foam on his website. Basically there are the divinycell/corecell types and the airex types. The latter are ok to the waterline but aren't strong when heated by direct sunlight, so not the best choices for decks and cabin tops.

    You would have to see about costs locally, but if you ask for a divinycell equivalent you'd be ok I think. I expect Mr Woods would confirm your choice is suitable if building one of his designes.

    Even if foam itself is dearer you can save a LOT by using vinylester or polyester resin rather than epoxy.

    I don't know much about plywood building. I've read a bit but as I said my previous experience puts me off it.

    Whatever you decide good luck with your project!
     
  5. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Check out the Toronto Multihull Cruising Club on your side of Canada. They should be able to show you how boats do in the climate. I wouldn't build in anything but wood/epoxy with the appropriate fibers but I'm into renewable things which might be out of step with convention. For sure if you are in timber country you have a better price on things than Guzzi in Oz. (Geez Guzzi if these things are free grab one, the only thing comparable to wood for fatigue resistance is carbon fiber. )

    Keeping a wood boat young comes down to maintenance, keeping the outer skin/membrane intact and the boat ventilated. They can laaaast, But they mat not be worth as much to those in step with convention. So figure out what you like to work with in materials, The dinghy idea is a great idea to try your material of choice. Synthetic materials are consistent, wood takes some knowledge in regards to species, grain etc.... Part of the fun if you know what you are doing and a problem if you don't.
     
  6. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    Just priced finished pricing a Windsong and it is about the same as the Pahi 31. There is just a little bit more plywood and epoxy. But that is nothing compare to the entire cost.


    With the Material list that Woods provided I priced the cost for material 17 000$, Main sail 3800$, Foresail 2200$, basic electronics and electricity set up 4000$, rigging 4000$ and included about 80 hours of CNC cutting labor at around 55$ per hour, 4 400$.

    Being a standard mast profile it is probably possible to find a used mast that will do the job!

    I get around 35 000 to 43 000$. to built a Windsong. Is this a reasonable cost estimate from your experience?

    I already have a brand new 2016 Suzuki 9.9hp long shaft power tilt electric start outboard with a warranty for 6 years that I currently used with my Grampian 26. I think that this is a perfect fit for this catamaran.
     
  7. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Paying retail drives the price up. A suggestion would be to make a business so you can buy wholesale. Learn how to shop in the industrial sector and avoid the stores. Buy in bulk and expect a discount.

    Shop around on the sails but be careful there, you want good triple stitched flatter cuts for multis if you are using Dacron. For overseas sails I'd suggest National Sail Supply because they have reps here.

    I'd skip the electronics and go with hand helds.

    The used spar makes sense, go for Sta-lok fittings so you can make your own stays and buy wire in bulk. Learn how to splice and buy the line/rope in bulk.

    The CNC is very expensive, jig saws are your friend. If the time saved makes sense to you shop around and again go commercial.
     
  8. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    Thank you for your suggestion. Ypu are right that the best set up would be to make a buisness out of it!!

    For the CNC cutting I think that it is very worth it! We use it at work to get part cut and the speed, the precision and the time saved is just amazing!!! I don't mind to pay for the time it takes to cut all the part needed.

    What ever the catamaran I will choose I am planning to draw all the parts in cad to be able the get them cut CNC. This way I can make myself a model to scale bedore I build the real one.
     
  9. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    One advantage of building your own boat is that you can spread the costs over a period. That also means you can shop around for longer to get the best bargains. Remember you can start with used sails, no electronics etc to save money. But you can never replace the basic hulls

    I am surprised by your sail prices. They are about the same as we paid for top quality sails on our Romany, a much bigger boat. And I don't know what "basic electronics" means. On our current boat we have a USD400 chart plotter and a USD60 fish finder. I don't usually have a wind speed meter. My batteries are now 4 years old and came from Walmart. I have two 12v LED cabin lights, and three AA powered LEDs. They last a winter cruising, in the heads, for example on one set. On an open deck boat I don't see why you would need more than 6 cabin lights.

    When building my Gypsy I went round all the local riggers and asked what they had in their scrap pile. I bought a suitable mast for GBP50 and a mile (almost!) of new, but wrong length, rigging for GBP7. The boom was less of a good deal at GBP20, the roller reefing gear was a "rip off" at GBP80. I know that was now 20 years ago, but similar deals are still available (the front netting beam on our Skoota cost me a 6 pack of beer). That Gypsy sailed to Morocco from the UK last year

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  10. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    It's worth putting a few wanted ads out and about for mast and rigging. I was lucky enough to secure a 19 metre aluminium rotating mast and sails off a boat that was wrecked in a storm for my project and the price was right.
     
  11. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Senior Member

    @Richard Woods. I try to overbudget the sail and tje electronic because therr is always some unknown when building and I want to get a realistic price. You are right that for electonic I can just use a fishfinder and my cell phone or a tablet and It would be good enought. This is actually what I am currently using on my Grampian 26 for week emd sailing.

    Now if I want to be able to do longer cruise, this is my future plan with a catamaran, an autopilot is very worth it connected to the chart plotter.

    The cruise that I have in mind is going down the ICW, jump to the bahamas, Cuba, going down the caraibes and sailing the coast of South America. Never really any ocean crossing. Basically sort of Coastal Cruising and when I get to these country I want to look be able to blend with the local. Stoping in a small Bay close to a village and doing my shopping. Having a small and rustic Boat is better because they will not look at you as the rich person that drop in!!!

    Of curse that maybe 30-35 foot catamaran is on the small size but in my life I learn that most of the time small and simple is beautiful​...
     
  12. Beamreach
    Joined: Oct 2016
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    Valeri,
    I'm in Hamilton On. , have built a pair of RW's Eclipse Hulls in foam/glass/epoxy.
    I like the Coral Cove type build or the RW -Tamar .
    They give you some shelter without looking rich .
    There is a Tamar build just outside Hamilton On. documented on RW's site ,have you a build site or like me are you starting in the back yard?
    You can also go with the Eclipse with a Romany Cuddy on the deck ,faster build ,doesn't look like you're rich and shelter is nice on the cold ocean .
    We are going that way. Building the Cuddy from Exterior Douglas Fir ply with nice dark glue lines ,costs about $45 /sheet 9mm.... $40. 6mm....
    For hulls I would use marine ply ,Cuddy is fine with Fir for me anyways ....
    For prices on foam & ply you can check out noahsmarine.com they have on line catalogue out of Toronto/Buffalo . Got my foam & ply & glass there ten years ago ,price has doubled or more now, sometimes they have foam on sale ,got a pile of that as well.
    Jim
     
  13. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Beamreach: Please read the thread

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/just-bought-study-plans-pahi-31-a-57526.html

    Eclipse and Tamar are twice the boat windsong is and valery gaulin has already stepped up from a pahi 31.

    valery gaulin: I assumed when you made that post you had deliberately been pessimistic in costing your project. Very sensible. It will either come in on budget and you will be happy, or you will come in under budget and be even happier. You have sailing experience I'm sure you will choose electronics etc which suit your preferences. Do keep an eye out while you build for deals as suggested, there are a lot to be had over the time you will be building. Bulk discounts can be very large, just compare the cost of 44 gallon drum of resin compared to a 5 gallon drum.

    Personally I would be interested in comments comparing windsong to gypsy, by Mr Woods or anyone else familiar with both. Very similar size boats, I would guess gypsy sails better, but windsong has more "style"..
     

  14. Beamreach
    Joined: Oct 2016
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    Beamreach Junior Member

    Deep "V" hulls are prone to hobbyhorse.
    I have read Richard Woods comment confirming one of his Windsongs was hobbyhorsing as one of his builders sailed from RW's home in England .
    Gypsy would be then better ,I would prefer Gypsy with daggerboards although I don't see that option mentioned.
    Is 14 beam still a requirement ?
     
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