Will I become crazy and build a caramaran??? Windsong, Coral Cove 31, Pahi 31

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by valery gaulin, Apr 2, 2017.

  1. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Junior Member

    Pahi 31, Windsong or Coral Cove 31. Am I Crazy enough to start building a catamaran!

    Ok, I just bought all the study plans that seams to make sense for my needs.

    Windsong, Coral Cove 31, Pahi 31.


    I want to know building time comparison and cost comparison from people that walk that path before.

    The longuest to built and most expensive would be Coral Cove 31 from what I see on the study plans

    Between Pahi 31 and Windsong???

    Other point of importance:

    - Possibility to single hand
    - Using with a family of 5, 3 childrens and my wife for short cruise, 1 -2 weeks max
    - Possibility to cruise the Great loop, the ICW and sail to Cuba me and my wife only in the futur.
    - The overall beam for marina fees. 14foot is a single slip, above that I am not sure. This is for sure a pros and cons choice vs sailing capability.
     
  2. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Good! Now we are getting down to it.

    I possibly should have included the following in my previous comment. I've said it elsewhere on this forum but here goes again:

    Sailing is a completely irrational activity. It's slow, expensive, uncomfortable and dangerous. Sensible people would take a plane, or a cruise liner. If you have chosen to go sailing the only valid criteria is that it makes you happy.

    I have bought and sold many second hand boats over the years. Some have been mistakes, but because I buy carefully they have cost me little or no money. Building a boat is a whole other proposition. Your going to invest about $30k and 1500 hours into building a boat in this size range. Nothing could be worse than spending years building your dream boat only to drop it in the water and find it's not what you want. That's why it's important to pick the right one.

    As a general guide the time and money are proportional to the weight, not the length, and as I said previously fast/cheap build miracle systems are usually not going to deliver the savings you hope for across the whole build. That's not to say you should choose a bad building system, but any of the common ones will yield good results.

    The pahi is quoted at 1300 kg, but as I said you could build a 24' boat and get those accomodations and at least as good sailing qualities.

    The CC31 is a huge boat at 2950 kg. It will take you twice as much time and money to build.

    Windsong is in the middle. IMO it has adequate accommodations for what you want and will sail ok. If it were me I'd build gypsy but windsong is a good choice.

    Adressing your criteria:

    - Possibility to single hand

    Properly set up all these can be sailed solo.

    - Using with a family of 5, 3 childrens and my wife for short cruise, 1 -2 weeks max

    Personally I'd find pahi 31 cramped, windsong adequate and CC31 luxurious, but people have different expectations. All will have enough berths. With windsong and CC31 you have standing headroom underway, so stand up shower, stand up galley, and indoor dining if it's raining or cold outside.

    - Possibility to cruise the Great loop, the ICW and sail to Cuba me and my wife only in the futur.

    I'm in Australia so can't comment on those waters.

    - The overall beam for marina fees. 14foot is a single slip, above that I am not sure. This is for sure a pros and cons choice vs sailing capability.

    14' is really hard. Wharrams are narrow boats, as are some of the old British production cats, Prouts, Hirondelle etc. Are you going to keep it in a marina permanently or occasionally visit one ? I'd probably add up the numbers and think hard about that. If it was 16' then the possibilities open up, but 14' beam is hard. You might be able to squeeze Eagle down to 14' beam with Mr Woods permission, and it'd have similar accommodations to a pahi 31. You could add a pod to eagle and get a double bed amidships and sleep the kids in the hulls. Like pahi though no 6' headroom.
     
  3. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Good reading, your last post, guzzi.
     
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  4. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Junior Member

    With the Material list that Wharram provided I priced the cost for material 15 000$, Main sail 3500$, Foresail 2000$, basic electronics and electricity set up 4000$, rigging 4000$ and included about 80 hours of CNC cutting labor at around 55$ per hour, 4 400$.

    The total cost is around 33 000$ - 40 000$ to built myself a Pahi 31. Is this a reasonable cost estimate from your experience?

    I already have a brand new 2016 Suzuki 9.9hp long shaft power tilt electric start outboard with a warranty for 6 years that I currently used with my Grampian 26. I think that this is a perfect fit for this catamaran.
     
  5. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    The suzuki outboard will do for any of those boats, even the waller I think. Mind I sailed for years with no engine and don't understand why some people want huge motors on sail boats. Each to their own.

    It sounds like you've done some proper costing which is good. Most people underestimate. I can't comment in detail because prices where you are will be different to here, but it looks realistic.

    I know you like the looks of the wharram, and if you go that way well and good, but please do consider the woods. It will cost about the same to build, maybe slightly more, but it will be a really nice boat. In fact it might be faster to build....There is a basic materials lsit for windsong free to download off the page. It would be worth costing that out.

    I built a spreadsheet years ago with one page of materials prices and several separate pages of designs. By referencing the materials page I could get totals on different designs and if prices shifted I just had to update a few cells. It is worth considering because you can compare different boats really efficiently.

    Personally I'd consider the flat panel glass version of windsong. Ply is virtually the same cost as foam sandwich here, flat panel glass/vinylester is probably cheaper and you get a boat that's much lower maintenance and much higher resale value. I don't like ply because I've owned ply boats, that's my opinion, do what's right for you.

    Mr Efficiency : Thanks!

    One more thing. Before you start the main boat consider buying the plans for duo or trist from Mr Woods and build that boat. It would be a useful tender on teh larger boat and give you good practice and experience building a boat in plywood. Also gives you something to play in while you build.
     
  6. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Junior Member

    Thank you for your reply. I will for sure price Windsong from Woods since I am also debatting which one to build and I bought the study plan to compare.

    When you talk about building material. It mention that it can be built with GRP sheet, were can I buy this so that I can get pricing. It would solve the rot proble of wood but it probably is more prone to condensation inside the boat because of lack of insulation properties.

    I am wondering why pressure treated plywood covered with epoxy is not more used for building boat. If it is dried enought the bonding seams to be as good and if it is sealed with epoxy there should be no health effect breathing inside the boat.

    Anybody as an opinion on pressure treated plywood with epoxy construction?
     
  7. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    It probably isn't a good idea to use pressure treated plywood and epoxy as it is likely that the epoxy will not bond properly. And there seems little point to it as coating with epoxy (2-3 coats) will be more watertight and also stiffen the plywood

    You would probably have to make your own grp flat panels, although there are companies that do it. My Windsong had solid glass hulls and ply decks. My Gypsy had foam sandwich hulls and ply decks. The foam hull is better and, taking the project as a whole, not much more expensive than solid glass

    Most people with a Windsong would use a high thrust outboard, 8-9.9hp. I only had a old 2 st 9.9 Evinrude on mine, however it only did 5mpg at 5 knots. A new 9.9 should do twice that.

    You may be overworrying about the durability of plywood. I think I posted these before, but here are photos I took in November of two plywood Windsongs. Both are over 30 years old. The grey one was built on a real budget, only WBP plywood, not 1088. It has crossed the Atlantic twice.

    Interesting you have a Grampian 26, one of my Canadian customers has offered to lend us his so we can cruise the Georgian Bay this summer

    (Thank you guzzis3 for your comments)

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     

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  8. garydierking
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    garydierking Senior Member

    I have been using epoxy on New Zealand treated ply for the last 25 years without any problem. I called the West people first and they gave me their blessing. They said to give it a light sand first to remove any surface granules.
     
  9. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Junior Member

    Yes it seams after looking around on the net that if the pressure treated plywwod is dried the epoxy will bond no problem.

    I just red that on Glen-L website
    https://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/boatbuilding-plywood.html

    Anyway I am looking at using Douglas fir plywood marine grade easily available here in Canada. Seams to be a good choice! I actually was priced at 75$ / 12mm x 4'x8' sheet sanded both side. Does this eams right price?
     
  10. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Epoxy is a mechanical not chemical bond which lets it work. My concern would be if the pressure treated ply loses strength in that process like lumber. Something to look into, if your 3/8" is working as 1/4" it is good to know. Epoxy will also adhere to wood treated with things like cuprinoll.

    My son got me your book Gary, I'm going to play with some of the rigs on my canoe.
     
  11. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    As I said previously if you choose any of the common building methods the result will be good. Which one you choose is up to you. As long as you don't get into anything mad like hot moulding it'll be fine.

    I was expressing my personal bias against timber. I've owned old ply boats. They had problems. Here is australia ply boats have almost no resale. If they are perfect they are fine. Anything goes wrong they can become a problem.

    Mr Woods offers solid glass for that boat. He may offer a foam option if you ask. Gypsy has several options you can build, different materials, a demountable version. You have options. Mr Woods has some really great articles on his site explaining the strengths and weaknesses or various materials and build approaches. I strongly recommend you read some of them. It won't take long and they are the best I have found on the internet explaining your options.

    As I said before everyone has their own preferences, everyone wants something different from the boat. Mr Woods boats offer practical usable accommodation and good sailing characteristics. They are designed to be quick and rational to build. You may not like the style, you may want some specific feature he does not offer. You might decide to build a trimaran or a proa. The woods website is a very good starting point to consider your options, and most of what you'll need is there for free.

    In the mean time buy some duo or tryst plans and build that boat. It'll give you a really cheap taste of boatbuilding in ply and you'll get a handy little sailing rowing and small outboard dinghy. I am sure once you've done that you will be clearer on what you want to do.
     
  12. david@boatsmith
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    david@boatsmith Senior Member

    The first cat we built was a plywood Tiki 30. We did an outstanding job on the boat and she looked awesome and was well equipped. We barely got materials out of her when sold. For us building a plywood boat is a non-starter. Resale is very important at some point for most people.
     
  13. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Do you think your problem with the resale of that first boat was because of the wood construction, or the fact that it was a Wharram design?

    Looking quickly at your website would have me believing you are still building in wood/epoxy?


    I know of a number of wood/epoxy boats that are excellent products, and very resellable, ie, 2 I can think of right off hand;
    1) Powercat trawler
    2) http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=517183&postcount=326

    http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=518302&postcount=432
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member


  15. valery gaulin
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    valery gaulin Junior Member

    I already have a sailboat a 1973 Grampian 26 that i just renovated.

    My catamaran project is my next project so i am not in a hurry. I can enjoy sailing right now while I dream of my catamaran.

    The Catamaran you are showing look nice but is a little big for me trying to stay between 30-33 foot lenght with 16-17 foot beam.

    Talking at resale value, the one you are showing me is 107 000$, it seams that it barely pay for the material of the buitl!!! I am sure to build a catamran like this it is prbably around 200 000$ just in material!!!

    I still did not get a chance to finish pricing Windsong but a short answer is that it look very similar in pricing to Pahi 31 maybe just a little bit more but not much. Probably % difference in displacement is the % difference in cost!!! I
     
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