Wild Oats XI fitted with DSS!

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,196
    Likes: 27, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    My opinion is that new classes should be created as new technologies create new boats. They should develop objective safety standards and a start schedule optimized for finish line spectators. Autos having rules for races are simply optimizing the use of facilities. If they had 200 mile wide lanes they would have much broader classes. The example of including a carbon hull, canting keel, cuban fiber sail, DSS boat and counting it like a woody while excluding a catamaran or trimaran makes the point obvious.

    Corrected time might be the big prize but there could be one design prizes and major categories of similar designs. Excluding competitors is very destructive to the sport. The result is extremely expensive boats that are not as capable as the modern boats that are excluded from racing and the only people who care about the results are the owners and builders who squabble over minutia. Classes or rating rules with long storied histories have an advantage and attraction in selling new boats -pedigree. But new technologies would also have their backers with the interest of going down in history as key figures in the development.
     
  2. NoEyeDeer
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 983
    Likes: 32, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Australia

    NoEyeDeer Senior Member

    This isn't practical for races like the Hobart. You basically just have to let 'em rip, and the people at the finish line have to put up with whatever they get.
     
  3. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    In many regattas the biggest fastest boat must start first for safety reasons.

    Timing of starts and keeping dissimilar boats from mixing on the same race course is very important.

    Even with carefull thought and correct fleet separation ,
    its possible the the wind conditions change and speedsters are amongst the traditional race boats

    Ive seen races cancelled when this happens...frustrating for all.


    When a little guy tacks onto starboard, it does little use to yell STARBORD at the port tack speedster bearing down on him a 20 knots.

    Its frustrating to be a traditional sailing yacht on the course with speedesters and be forced to always Give way for safety reasons
     
  4. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    So according to the principles in your post it's not just the sailors who are wrong.... it's the bicycle racers, the surfers, the skiers, the motorcycle racers, and the car racers, the track and field athletes, the swimmers, and just about everyone else who runs a sporting event - for just about everyone prohibits or restricts some technologies in order to create a simpler, more even contest that is not diluted by having so many divisions that no one knows who won or who had a comparable experience.

    May we know what sports administration experience you have that allows you to say that the international cycling, motor racing, motorcycling, rallying, athletics, swimming, etc sports administrators have got it wrong and you have got it right?

    Autos racers do not have unlimited classes even when they use wide "racetracks", on the evidence of the major desert rallies like the Finke desert and Dakar Rally. And they do not normally mix types. Motorbike races do NOT allow cars into their major events. Stock cars do NOT allow F1 or Indy cars into their major events. Even events that race different types of "saloons" do NOT allow open wheelers (F3, F3000, FF, F1, etc) or Le Mans type sportscars into their major events, even if they are of reasonably compatible performance.

    Your vision for a "start schedule" for the Hobart also completely ignores the practical issues. How in the world do you organise a "start schedule" for the Hobart optimised for finish line spectators? To clear the start area inside the extremely busy Sydney Harbour in the peak holiday season takes 300 patrol boats. To arrange the spectators take hundreds of police, Lions Club people running shuttle buses, road closures, cleaning staff from local councils, air traffic control, modification of routes for 2000 tonne ferries, etc etc etc.

    How often do you want to put this multi-million dollar effort into effect each year? Do you want to have one start for the small monos, another for the medium monos and small multis, a third for the big monos, a fourth for the 60' multis and a fifth for any G Class that want to play? Why in the world should the taxpayers of NSW cough up for all that?

    Have you considered that perhaps those who run an event that attracts 200,000 live spectators may perhaps....just perhaps....know more about its practicalities than those who have never done the race and never seen it, do?


    Why do you want to optimise the finish for the spectators in a city of 216,000 (in the poorest state in the country) and not optimise the start for the spectators in a city of 4.7 million, in the richest area of the country? Do you honestly think that sponsors want the finish line to be the spectacle, when the publicity payout for them is so much smaller?

    You say that comparing a canter to a tri makes the point obvious. So why do you think that the commodores of the CYCA have not noticed the point, if it is so obvious? Do you think men like Howard Piggot and Gary Linacres (recent commodores) and Duncan Van Woerden (multi sailor and former commodore) are corrupt or stupid when they fail to see this "obvious" point? Or could it be that you are the one who is not seeing the obvious points?

    Do you honestly think that you know more about what the sponsors want than the sponsors do? What qualifications in marketing and sponsorship and what knowledge of the Australian market and media do you have that makes you think that you are wrong and they are right?

    On what factual basis can you claim to know that no one in Oz cares about the Hobart results? Have you checked the media? Done research? Run surveys?

    Sounds like you are just making up stuff to fit your own prejudices.... and if that sounds rude well it's no ruder than your implication that the CYCA, their sponsors, the RYCT, the NSW government and the Australian media know less about the race than you do.

    Sorry mate, but sometimes it seems extraordinarily arrogant for people who have never seen the race, never done the race, never been involved in running the race to sit back and say "*&^%$ those CYCA ******, I have a much better idea than they do about how to run the Hobart".

    You said that allowing a carbon canter to race with woodies but banning multis "makes the point obvious." No it doesn't. Almost all sports, and most events including some of the biggest ones, include some sophisticated gear and ban simpler gear that is faster or more effective in some way.

    Motorcycle races may bikes as sophisticated as a canter, while still excluding less-sophisticated but faster cars. Bicycle races include carbon-framed electronic-gear carbon-wheeled time trial bikes and count them just like steel-framed bikes, but exclude faster and simpler steel recument tricycles. Olympic shooting events include events for sophisticated air pistols but don't allow anyone to use a simple home-built mortar to shoot up the same target.

    You said that excluding competitors because of the gear they choose is harmful to the sport. Where is your evidence? Are you REALLY saying that the organisers of the Tour de France, the Formula One, Le Mans, NASCAR, Bathurst, the World Cups of skiing and athletics, the organisers of the pro surfing tours, the creators of the Red Bull Air Race - who ALL exclude competitors because of their gear - are all stupid people who are doing something harmful for their sport?

    Are you saying that the organisers of the world's biggest cat race (Texel) are stupid for excluding monos? Are you saying that the organisers of the world's biggest windsurfer race (Defi Wind) are stupid too, because they only allow windsurfers?

    Having specialist events for particular forms of equipment and disciplines is not just a sailing passion, it's a universal passion followed by every human - from scientists who have specialist conferences just for vision science or other specialities, to musicians who have festivals just for Wagner or just for techno or other niches, to classic car racers who have events just for classic cars, gays who have events just for gays, masters athletes who have events just for those over 35, etc etc etc. Oh, and multihull sailors who have LOTS of events just for multis but whine like hell when anyone excludes them.

    I have a fairly simple challenge for you - find a major event that allows every type of equipment in that sport to play** and show me where that event is the #1 event in its sport for that geographical area. Funny thing is that most, maybe all, of the world's biggest events are specialist ones. Even in places where you could run a "bring whatever sails" events, they normally flop.


    ** obviously we're talking sports using fairly significant pieces of equipment like boats, cars, bikes, skis. Although I note that even in comps that use equipment as small and ubiquitious as chess and chequers pieces, or skis, or computer games, do NOT normally foster all different types.

    You said "The example of including a carbon hull, canting keel, cuban fiber sail, DSS boat and counting it like a woody while excluding a catamaran or trimaran makes the point obvious."



    What you are advocating is an end to the ability of people to be able to choose what gear they want to compete against. That is not free choice, it's the destruction of free choice.
     
  5. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,196
    Likes: 27, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    CT you are welcome to your opinion but you are not welcome to throw insults around and claim they are my opinion.

    None of my opinions are specific to any race they are about improving sailing and boat development. Apparently you are from a place where there are too many sailboats & sailors and not enough ocean. In those conditions it makes perfect sense to limit the contenders and it would make more sense for them to be comparable to past contenders.

    Where I am at sailing is declining in participation and social relevance when it should be growing.
     
  6. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 79, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    If I'm insulting it's no more than you were when you used terms like "very destructive" and "squabbling" to describe the actions of the CYCA and S-H owners. I know and respect some of those people or (in one case) their family; why can't I object to them being described as "very destructive"??

    Would you just sit on the sidelines if I called people you liked "very destructive" and implied that they were discharging their volunteer responsibilities poorly???

    Sure, I have definitely been known to call for changes but there's a difference between calling for change after doing formal research* and actually being on the inside of a scene for decades, and calling for change from the sidelines in another country without knowing the practical issues involved. Such monday morning quarterbacking seems to imply that those involved in running the S-H are too stupid to see what is obvious to the commentator.

    Yes, sailing IS doing OK in my old area, where the CYCA is. And you know what? Sailing in that are is much MORE compartmentalised than in many other areas. There are clubs that just do ocean racing; clubs that just do Skiffs and not other dinghies; clubs that just do other dinghies and don't do Skiffs; clubs that just do cats; clubs that basically just do inshore yacht racing and leave the offshore racing to other clubs; and clubs that just do a single one-design class (although such clubs have almost died out). Specialisation can be the best way to grow particular areas of a sport. Multihull sailors know that which is why they form multihull-only clubs and run multi-only regattas.

    In my new area each club welcomes everything bar kites (not practical here) and to be honest the sailing is much worse than in my old area where clubs specialised, because it's too hard to get critical mass of similar boats when you welcome everything. Specialist clubs can get critical mass for good class racing more easily than "all in" clubs. Trying to race windsurfers against small keelboats is just not fun in the same way that racing OD is.

    The CYCA's home town is evidence of the POSITIVES that can come from clubs that concentrate just on one area of sailing. If sailing where you are from is declining more than in Sydney, maybe people in your area should be learning from Sydney's specialty clubs (like the CYCA) instead of saying that they should change?

    * for example, interviewing the Bermuda and Fastnet race committees about how their race compares to the Hobart these days, and carrying out simple statistical analysis of boat type changes over 30 years.



    Of course
     
  7. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    I personally witnessed this at Hamilton Island Race week back in 1995. The then "new" "Fudge for Hair" (ex Matador2 - 86' iOR Maxi) was luffed up at the starting line by a 30' cruiser who's bow anchor caught one of Fudge's stanchions.

    Said cruiser went from 3 knots to 12 knots in nothing flat. and POP went one stanchion (with Carbon Fiber flying everywere) and the anchor slithered along the deck with no one being willing to get near it and the heavy chain it was attached to

    Clang!!! hooked the next stanchion... POP!! rinse (the Fudge for Hair) and Repeat!


    The cruiser had the gall to petition for redresss for the time it took him to wind in the 100m of chain that got pulled through his capstan brake before the anchor popped free of Fudge.....

    had ANYONE been near that thing flying around - someone would have been seriously hurt
     
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,670
    Likes: 337, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Wild Oats XI DSS

    Heres an excerpt from an article on the Daily Sail: ( http://www.thedailysail.com/offshore/13/65771/0/wild-oats-xi-shows-her-appendages )

    It has only been during the past 10 days that Wild Oats XI’s skipper, Mark Richards, and his crew, have had the wind conditions needed to fully test the wing – and they are elated by the results.

    “This year’s Rolex Sydney Hobart Race is going to be one of the most keenly contested in recent times, for both line and handicap honours,” Richards said today. “Wild Oats XI has just had her eighth birthday, so we had to do something to give the old girl a new lease of life. I think this wing will do it, especially if we get fast downwind conditions during the race.”

    Richards explained that the wing will come into effect when the yacht achieves 18 knots boat speed. At that speed the foil – which is fully enclosed within the hull when not in use – will be extended more than two metres out to the leeward side. When fully extended it will provide between eight and 10 tonnes lift.

    “The trial results were quite remarkable,” Richards said. “There was an impressive increase in speed. We’re not getting too carried away, but from what we have seen, if we get the right conditions in the Hobart race the wing might make the difference.”


    Picture by Andrea Francolini -click-
     

    Attached Files:

  9. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Yachties really value, what brings them back year after year is the Tattersalls Cup

    But will Wild Oats X1 win the elusive Tattersall's Cup again this year.



    But what yachties really value, what brings them back year after year after year is the elusive Tattersall’s Cup, awarded to the overall winner on IRC handicap in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race.


    Link to Story and the motivation.

    http://www.7knots.com/CGI/list_forum.pl?board=Misc_And_Others;view=656

    OC
     
  10. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,770
    Likes: 189, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated


  11. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,670
    Likes: 337, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Wild Oats XI DSS

    Thanks Corley. I guess the engineers and/or builders don't quite have a handle on those big foils. Fantastic that they're still using it-I thought it might have been just for the Sydney -Hobart last year-I guess not. There is another 100' boat designed from scratch for DSS gona hit the water fairly soon , I think. Supposedly one of the lightest maxi monohulls ever built.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.