Why don't lots more people sail multis..???

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by buzzman, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Well maybe you could if you used the Elf moulds I have in the UK. The Elf is something like a bigger Sango and a Sango-like legally trailable version is available. Available free to any boatbuilder who actually builds them (and pays me a design royalty!).

    Contact me via my website if you're interested

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  2. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Richard

    Is the elf one of your designs?

    I don't see it on your site?

    Wayne
     
  3. proagenesis
    Joined: Jun 2013
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    proagenesis Junior Member

    lets start looking at same facts

    a short water line is .... with out planing > slow
    and planing is a nuisance on the ocean !

    and there we will have to go if we want to go most places .....

    but a long wl is costly .... unless we follow the principles of oceania
    where they found out long ago > that we need just one long hull
    to have the comfort and speed we need on the ocean !

    but with the disadvandage of needing live balast !
    unless we go one step further > the vector fin proa
    and even better yet ... the > hinged vfp !

    http://proagenesis.org

    the only problem > we are having with this > is the multiplication of the reasons
    discussed on this tread >

    in fact we are having the same situation multies had 50 years ago
    and no body dares doing any thing different > even if being better !

    even being a lot less material we are needing for this hvfp
    having none of the structural problems .... associated with cats and tris !

    sooo .. if we are asking > why dont a lot of people sail a hvfp ?
    we have to answer > because nobody dares being different !
    and being better or heaven forbid > being perfect is out of the question ......

    especially cruising sailors are prone to ....
    since they are on the fringe of society any ways ....

    http://interproa.org


    regards .... the team at proagenesis
    .
     
  4. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

  5. buzzman
    Joined: May 2011
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Another option for those in North America - a recently frame-up rebuilt 24ft Piver Nugget is advertised in the current isue of Latitude 38 for $3500.

    You couldn't build the boat for that..!!

    The ad is at the bottom of p167, with a pic. Here's the words:

    "24-FT PIVER NUGGET, 1964. Santa Cruz
    Harbor. $3,500. Great little tri needs a new
    family. She is in excellent shape. Fully
    sound glass over ply. Recent ‘frame-off’
    restoration. Relaunched in 2011. See on
    inside tie at SC Harbor, gangway M. (831)
    332-7454 or nkisling@pacbell.net."

    If I could afford the airfare to San Fran, I'd fly over and sail it back. Heck, it might still be cheaper than building one here in Oz, even with the airfare included!

    Can someone local check it out?
     
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Well, I think one reason more people do not sail multis is that there is not as much interest ....

    Just look to our forum. There are almost as many topics about kayaks and canoes as about multi-hull boats. So, when there is not as much interest, we need to give people greater reasons to increase their interest.

    Some topics to increase interest.

    Better boats? Better stability? Less expensive maintenance (this will probably not be true)? More fun? Faster? Quicker build time for the same cabin space?

    Less expensive for the same cabin space?

    Usually look better?

    Better boats for future charter? And for resale?

    Focusing on the disadvantages will not do us much good.

    Multis have shallower draft and allow you to actually do more.

    Maybe we could focus the conversation comparing those who want to live aboard boats in a marina - monos? Versus those who want to sail the world - multis?
     
  7. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    But what do you compare? This is a very complex comparison and it's not trivial, nor is it clear cut. It's fundamental Naval Architecture 101, what's the SOR? Only then can you make any comparisons within the design space.

    You have to be careful with these exercises not to cherry pick the best of one type and the worst of the other to try and make it more appealing.

    Why don't more people sail multi's ? Because a multi doesn't suit their requirements would be a simple answer.
     
  8. champ0815
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: Munich, Germany

    champ0815 Senior Member

    Well, yes and no... .
    Yes, because if the requirements are like "I want to sail like the other guys in the club" or "I want a production boat for below 100 grand that sleeps six" or "I want a boat like the one I learned sailing on", the requirements exclude in most cases multis. If you have not a very inquisitive mind and are accustomed to thinking outside of the box, you think only in dimensions you know of - and accordingly state your requirements when you think of buying a boat.
    And no, because many people simply doesn't know of the possibilities of multis, especially for cruising, since most people know only of the extreme sports multis (beachcats or off shore racers) or the very expensive (and sluggish) charter condomarans - everything in between doesn't exist for them.
    IMHO it is part missing knowledge because of lack of propagation because of lack of representation in the club scene.
    The other part (but related) is the absence of affordable production multis in cruising dimensions - most sailors just want to go sailing with some comfort and want to buy boats for this, not plans and a stack of ply.
     
  9. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The only folks seriously considering a multi are addicted to iridescent kool aid.

    Unaffected folks quickly recognize the multi hull folly and choose the correct tool for navigating.

    Kick the kool aid habit or you will join the Jim Jones gang.
     
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Well, while you and Jim ghost are drinking cool aide, with the CIA ....

    I think Champ, I, and the rest of us do not see a problem in helping others see the benefits, and problems, from owning, sailing, or chartering multis over monos.

    For most people, they will sail what they are accustomed to sail. And if they become accustomed to multis, the prices of multis will go down.

    And more boats will be on the ocean and not parked at a dock .... IMHO.
     
  11. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    mp
    This topic is about why more people don't sail multihulls.....you're on the wrong thread, friend. :)

    All the people on this thread already use Drive.

    [Oz pop culture ref - in joke]

    But e_g I don't think you're being fair when you say that multis sail the oceans and monos sleep in marinas....the majority of boats sailing the oceans are monos, and despite the general derision of condomarans, they do form the largest number of multis sailing the oceans these days.

    Alas, it is cases like that of the 57ft Anna that flipped in a squall near Nuie not long ago that pretty much sums up the "mono vs multi" argument - once a multi flips it's basically unrecoverable without external assistance.

    It is that fact primarily, plus the fact that multis cost more to begin with and cost more to berth, and require two engines rather than one, etc etc, that causes most people to opt for a mono - it isn't as simplistic as "that's what they learned to sail on....and what everyone they sail with owns", although both of those reasons are vaild, culturally-speaking.

    mg is partially correct when he says that multi sailors are consumers of exotic beverages - but arsenated Kool-Aid is not the drink of choice.

    Once having taken a draught of pure multihull elixir, one is generally converted, addicted and in many ways insatiable. It is, indeed an intoxicating cocktail.

    The proinciple ingredients are: speed, stability, space.

    Multis are for the adventurous, and those who like taking risks - or at least, have a high threshold for apparent risk.

    They are for people who tend to be less 'conservative' than others and are willing to tackle something 'out of the box'. People willing to fly in the face of convention and thumb their noses at authorities and the masses.

    Frankly, judging by what we read in sailing mags, the number of multis sailing the Med, the Caribbean and the US West Coast have been increasing year on year, if stories, letters and other reports can be anything but anecdotal.

    But I suspect the true reason most peple don't start out in multis is that of expense - they almost invariably cost significantly more than a similar length mono - whether it be dinghy or trailer sailor or 50ft oceangoer.

    Even utilising the 'half-mould' technique developed by Ian Farrier that greatly simplifies and speeds the hulls construction; even using foam and glass with infused resin, that greatly improves the finish and reduces the sanding and fairing time; even building a wing mast yourself from ply-glass like Garry B; even with all those improvements, it still takes a long time and a lot of cash - and commitment - to build a multi, over a similar length mono.

    Regardless of whether you do it yourself or purchase a production boat, foot for foot, a multi is usually more expensive than a mono.

    The other point I believe is worth mentioning is that monos far and away dominate the for sale pages of every website and magazine, so the choice, availability, and the competition for buyers' dollars that this saturation generates, means monos are also significantly cheaper second hand than multis, with the possible exception of older ply/glass boats.

    This thread is meant to be more about "what can we do to increase the number of people sailing multis" rather than a dissection of the social, cultural, safety, cost and availability issues.

    Sure - those issues need to be understood - but where to from there?

    How do we get more people into multis?
     
  12. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    If people want a boat similar to the one they learned in, a mono-hull sloop, than you have to have an entry level tri with similar costs and size.

    What is the most popular entry level sailboat? Lazer? El toro? PD?

    Develop an entry level boat with similar cost, weight and storage volume, than you should be able to sell them to beginner sailors. Some of them will move up to larger multis if they stick with it.
     
  13. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    What would you see as a significant increase in a reasonable time?
    For example, would you regard a 10% increase in 5 years as good or bad?
     
  14. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Therein lies the problem "similar costs and size".

    We already know that for a similar size, a multi costs more than a mono.

    And for the entrant classes, such as sailing clubs, you then run into the problem already raised of the space multis take up, especially cats, which are the cheaper multi option for beginners.

    You can fit more monos in the same space available as you can any multis, and you als have the problem that the folding/demountable options invariably take more time to set up and rig (or un-rig) than a mono.

    So perhaps we need a folding cat or tri that is similar in size to a small dinghy, that could be built inexpensively using ex-beach cat components.

    For example, 12ft and 14ft beach cats are regularly available for a few hundred dollars.

    So perhaps a 12ft or 14ft version of the Strike 16 which Richard Woods designed initially to utilise a 16ft beach cat for the amas. Perhaps with a multi-chine hull form, rather than the flat bottom of the Strike, and utilising the tramps for crew space rather than an enlarged cockpit, with trapezes to the hounds and an extension tiller, a la cat sailing

    The narrow hull could be half decked and self-draining, with no transom (like the racing skiffs) with a double-skinned hull to provide the buoancy factor necessary for safety; a masthead float to prevent the mast sinking when capsized to enable quick re-righting (like a dinghy), perhaps with quick-release shrouds to assist in this. Such as the process used by the Orion crew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=655COFngiQA

    One problem I envisage with this is that the beam of the tri would be greater than the beam of the cat donor, with greater righting moment, so the mast would not be tall or strong enough to maximise the performance of the new boat.....but that alone could lead to 'step' grades in performance.

    Junior Grade with original donor mast and sails, Senior Grade could have taller stiffer mast and larger sails for improved performance.

    Junior Grade could be 2-4 kids as crew, enabling split ownership between families, perhaps, thus further reducing the cost. Senior Grade would be 2 crew. But this still leaves the option of a single crew, perhaps rigged with main only, adding another race category for the same boat.

    A single tri with multiple rig and racing class options.
     

  15. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    I would imagine a 10% increase in total numbers would not be too shabby.

    But perhaps more importantly is the need for individual clubs, or multiple clubs in local proximity, to encourage/include enough boats to make a up a race series.
     
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