Why are marine alternators so darn $$$!

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by ted655, Dec 23, 2007.

  1. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    Two reasons.

    1. They are made for marine use, heavier duty, ignition protected.

    2. A few hundred thousand are made each year as opposed to automotive alternators, where 10's of millions are made each year. It's the old supply and demand thing. Volume is inversely proportional to price. High volume low price, low volume HIGH PRICE!

    It's that simple. no mystery here.
     
  2. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

    =======" 1. They are made for marine use, heavier duty, ignition protected." =====
    I can buy 14 yrs worth of auto grade and I don't need sheided parts.
    I'm taking my marbles & going home, I aint playing their stupid game.:D
     
  3. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Ignition protected?? You mean it wont spark?

    Dynamos were a bit iffy they had commutators and not slip rings . The brushed would spark as thet transfered from segment to segment and full power came through the brush .

    An alternator has slip rings which mean constant contact,--unlikely to spark. and only exiter current goes trough the rings.

    Im fitting car stuff and to hell with it.

    Try setting fire to some diesel?? by flashing two wires together.

    After 6 months come back and tell us how you got on.
     
  4. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    183.410 - Ignition Protection

    (a) Each electrical component must not ignite a propane gas and air mixture that is 4.25 to 5.25 percent propane gas by volume surrounding the electrical component when it is operated at each of its manufacturer rated voltages and current loadings, unless it is isolated from gasoline fuel sources, such as engines, and valves, connections, or other fittings in vent lines, fill lines, distribution lines or on fuel tanks, in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section.

    It doesn't necessarily mean it won't create a spark. Most ignition protected alternators, starters and distributors achieve this by either sealing up the device or putting flame screens (just like a flame arrestor) over the openings.

    Diesel power vessels are not required by the Coast Guard to have ignition protected components. I was just explaining why these things are so expensive. It's simple economics. If you make millions of the same item the price drops dramatically. If you only make a few (relative to millions) the unit price is much higher.

    For instance, when GPS first came out the units cost tens of thousands of dollars. Only the military could afford them. Now you can buy a GPS unit at Wal-Mart for about 100 bucks because they are now made and sold by the millions.

    There are about 100,000 diesel powered boats sold in the US every year. Worldwide maybe double that. How many automotive engines are sold? Millions and millions. So the economies of scale apply.

    Anyway, Merry Christmas, Happy New year. Enjoy yourself!
     
  5. longliner45
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    longliner45 Senior Member

    personally,I think propane on boats is a accident waiting to happen,,,boats constantly flex ,,losening fittings,,salt air ,,electralisis,,,,,and you name it ,,,,for me diesal ,,sail and alcohal,,,,,for the stove of coarse,,,I never sail or drive drunk,,, its just plain stuipid,I would like to see the states in the next year or so about explosions caused by propane,,longliner
     
  6. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

  7. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

    Thanks Teddy, but the rate of exchange between the $$ and Euro prevents any bargains.
    .
    I get Ike's point & he's right, but the WIDE difference in price is still out of proportion to materials. Twice the $$, three times the $$, NOT 7 times! Phooey on them.:p
    .
    Propane on board is NOT why they use propane to tesr with. The reasoning is; IF it's safe under these standards, THEN, it is most certainly safe with other, less volatile fuels. The test could be called "The extreme, most unlikely" test.
    .
    I had a great Christmas. I got a big retrieval magnet. Now I can get ALL the tools I have dropped overboard!:D
     
  8. Kay9
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Kay9 1600T Master

    Hey! Can I borrow your magnet.

    Merry Christmas
     
  9. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Ike, maybe to a limited degree. Alternators are made by big companies eg, Bosch, Lucas and the likes.
    My question, what does it cost them to modify an alternator to marine specs? They do make millions run of the mill alternators and to apply an extra coat/s of isolating agent to the windings etc, perhaps fit an spark arrestor screen wont cost the world - a few $$ perhaps.

    Being in the boat building business for quite a while (retired and back again) I had found that you do pay more when the word "Marine" is mentioned. It's all about hype - boating in general is a rich man's world (the more they pay, more to brag about to their friends) and priced accordingly and unfortunately, it is the real sailors amongst us that get bitten. Most yachts - sail and power - that get built, spend most of their time in a marina and are show pieces for their client's wealth.

    Earlier in this thread I used the example of stainless steel bolts I bought. This would shed a light on pricing. For instance, when these bolts were made, they were not being created on a separate manufacturing line purely intended for marine use, nope, they are all mass produced and then send of to distributors.
    ABC Bolt & Nut receive a few and price them $2 apiece, XYZ Marine receive the same and being a MARINE shop, charges $7 for they same bolt. It is not about scale of economics, rather a ripoff of the poor in a rich man's world....

    And I can use many other examples, actually, everything on a boat applies. Plywood is another prime example; many exterior grade ply is just as good and may I be so bold to say that in some cases even better, and is perfect for interior furniture in a sail boat. Just add that sticker that say "Marine" and see what happens to the price:!:

    Finally, my late father was a toolmaker at Nissan and at the time they made panel pressings for BMW, Mercedes and VW as well. His favorite panel tools to make - Mercedes Benz. According to my old man they had the easiest spec and their tolerances favored a blind man. That shows on all the older Mercs if you look at the shutlines and panel gaps....But you pay a premuim for the brand name. My dad alway said, how much more does it cost to build a similar sized class Merc compared to a Nissan Maxima? Not three times the price premium the Merc commands at the show rooms. Same with marine products.

    The Iceman has the right attitude and more of us must say to the marine suppliers "screw you" and go elsewhere and save some hard earned cash
     
  10. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    Of course real marine alternators do exist! Cast iron, triple belt pulley, totally closed and 48 Volts of course, never with a built-in regulator.
    Anything else is an automotive product, painted in a real marine color (black?), with -sometimes- a spark arrestor mesh added to one side. No extra isolation, no waterproofing, always a marine price tag.
    Electricity is magic for most people, so the are inclined to believe fairytales.
     
  11. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    CDK, what? electricity isn't magic?? Why, that's what I used to tell everybody who asked me how my radar worked. Magically, mystically, wonderfully electronically!

    Propane is just the means of testing. It has nothing to do with propane systems on boats, which as you pointed out can be damn dangerous. That's why there are very specific standards for propane systems, and why for many years the Coast Guard did not allow propane on vessels carrying passengers for hire.

    Magnets are wonderful things. They're magic too.

    Happy New Year
     
  12. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    I especially find amusing the "magic of marketers", that they manage to present products with such obviously exorbitant pricing and people are actually buying same!!!
     
  13. ted655
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    ted655 Senior Member

  14. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    Wise decision!
    If the Delco needs an alternator light and your dashboard doesn't have that, use a 100 ohms resistor between the DF terminal and Ignition+.

    Happy new year...
     

  15. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    I've heard from a retired magician it's form of "holy smoke" keeps electrics running. When it escapes, it's visible smoke, and the component won't work anymore...
     
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