Where plans go to die?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Tom2x4, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Blame the charter industry and blokes who take women boat shopping.
     
  2. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    I like the term Corley. I think that many people see their boats as consumer items, much like we see fridges and couches. I think that 4wds have had a similar recent history - where people without a clue of technical issues buy with a consumer focus rather than an aficionado's eye. So modern multi designs "progress" in one area (room and boxiness), when regressing in another (sailing performance, light wind and windward ability).
     
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  3. Russell Brown
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    Russell Brown Senior Member

    I don't see a private message thing on this forum. Is there one? Trying to get someone's e-mail address to you Catsketcher.
     
  4. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Russell, if you click on Cat's name above, and then click on 'Start a conversation', this is where the private messaging is hidden.
     
  5. Tom2x4
    Joined: Nov 2017
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    Tom2x4 New Member

    you guys are really really great! Thanks everyone for their comments.
    Oldmulti, the answer on the Attunga folding mechanism/pins is amazing.
    When you think about it, that thread has more historical multihull design information than anywhere else on the planet. i didn't really appreciate that a lot of it was in front of me already, i just need to open my eyes a little more. Lots of plan design is in there, and although it may not be in blueprint form, it's there for the meticulous reader. Thanks again for a great work.

    I still say it would be nice to have historic plans around to help deduce what multihull pioneers were thinking and experimenting with. With historic airplanes, you can usually find the plans open source, but much has to do with them being completely obsolete, or property of a government agency who owned it and released it. I would hope that multihull pioneers from the golden age, and their estate/owners would still consider releasing them for the next generation. Really, they could leave out a few details and make it impossible to build, but the general design would be available. At least, don't let them go to waste. For history's sake.

    The last boat show i went to had one multihull, a Lagoon 40 something that cost four times my house. I don't know much about sailing, but i wondered how the wind could propel something with a full size kitchen. It just didn't feel natural. The Polynesians didn't have three bathrooms on their vessels did they? What the heck is a saloon anyway? The brochure said something about a new 'organic' approach. That approach was 'imitation woodgrain furniture'..... I didn't know much about boat history, but it was obvious that times have changed. I'm glad for that boat because without it, i would have never learned all the great information i know now about the original multihull Voyagers. You don't need the money, you need the passion. Those guys had it. Maybe i'll go read some more and hope it rubs off on me haha.
     
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  6. farjoe
    Joined: Oct 2003
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    farjoe Senior Member

    No need to wonder. Sailing on these modern boxomarans is abysmal.

    I recently was invited for a sail on a brand new 43ft boat from a well known French builder. The boat only started moving when the wind was F4+. The expensive instruments stated we were pointing 45 degrees to the true wind but I don't believe it. Instructions stated that the boat should take a reef above 20 knots which makes the useful sailing range with full sails about 6 knots.

    The owner may as well have invested the money in more creature comforts for the boat instead of the rig.
     
  7. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Tom2x4;
    Have a read through the Historical Multihulls thread.
     
  8. Scuff
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    Scuff Junior Member

    Older designs using modern materials rock.
     
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  9. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Please stop the "modern designs are bad" comments, you are making fools of yourselfs. If you don't want a boat designed for comfort don't buy one, it's not like there is no alternative, either stock or custom. Yes, condomarans exist and they sell well enough to generate demand, but nobody is forcing you to buy a Lagoon. Want performance go buy a Catana, or a TS, or any other design that you like. They will sail better then any old boat you care about and offer better ergonomics and interiors.

    To the OP:
    Old plans don't die, they retire in libraries where they sit until someone needs them. The problem is that unless it's some famous design in a nautical library they often sit uncataloged on a shelf. Unless some scholar gets interested enough to actively go hunt for them and use the info to write something for the general population, they are forgotten. If there is no demand libraries will not waste precious resources to actively promote them.
     
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  10. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    Only if the designer or heirs donate copies of the plans to a library or museum, and that requires the library/museum to accept the plans. And even if donated the plans may sit in storage uncateloged.
     
  11. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Not only then, plenty of plans come into libraries from third parties, like for example from the estate of somebody that bought the plans commercially. But you are right, not all libraries take them and even if they do, they usually end up sitting in a box labeled "boat plans". A lot of plans also end up in public archives as part of business documentation and in such cases there are even less chances for them to get cataloged and digitized.
     
  12. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    It's not unreasonable to query the direction that modern designs are going when there are videos on Youtube from sailing couples titled with something to the effect of "a catamaran that actually sails!". The message that you don't have to settle for an inferior sailing catamaran is well and truly not out there. I personally have been queried by many fellow sailors who's only contact with sailing catamarans has been charter catamarans and asked why I like such crappy sailing boats that need a gale to actually sail and don't go upwind. Most production cruising monohulls are not designed to be such dogs and are normally reasonable sailing boats for a bit of club racing round the cans, why aren't production cruising multihulls expected to have similar abilities?

     
  13. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    That's what a portion of the market wants. Remember there are also performance cats in charter, yet your fellow sailors somehow managed to avoid them. It's telling don't you think? Or do they go to the charter company and say "here is my money just give me any boat"?

    Multihulls are still a small part of the sailing scene and economics dictate what gets designed and produced most. There is no mid sized cruiser-racer scene with weekly beer can regattas to drive sales towards that type of boat. The boats are much more biased towards one aspect of sailing or another. The dreaded Lagoons are actually a VPLP design exactly like the celebrated Outremer.

    Your question is a bit like "why is car design moving to SUV's?".
     
  14. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    I think Rumars is onto something here. For those of us brought up on lovely sailing racing dinghies, off the beach cats and yachts, sailing a condo cat is like playing an untuned guitar - it hurts to do so. But for those who haven't been brought up through racing, the entry point is different. As racing dies a death of a thousand cuts, from insurance issues to increased costs and more, its effect on design will reduce. In Australia, we had a vibrant offshore racing scene in the 70s-90s that developed some lovely cruiser racer designs which dominated the market. Now many racers are too extreme, like Morticia, and the Extreme 40s and there are fewer young pioneers producing boats in backyards on a shoestring. So the only vibrant area of the multi scene is pushed by the production builders, and racers have never really sold well. What I don't get is that my 4wd is a really nice car to drive - it doesn't offend my senses at all and yet it handles the bush well. I don't think Lagoon get the same balance as say GM does.
     

  15. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I disagree with the comparison, the question is in the normal suburban setting does an SUV perform the task as well as a normal passenger or sports car and the answer is yes. Do production catamarans offer the same level of safety as performance multihulls? On the whole I'd say no, they pay less attention to proper watertight bulkhead design at the expense of having more berths, a concern when you are taking the family along. They also don't go to windward acceptably and rely solely upon working engines to get them out of some situations.

    I can say in the design of my performance trimaran project the designer and I have spent a lot of time thinking about issues such as inverted waterlines and adequate protection from the elements in the event of a capsize, the ability to sail to windward in a gale and proper reefing systems that can be used shorthanded. Now there is the argument that a cruising multihull has a much lower chance of capsize than a performance one and there is some truth to that but equally I'm sure that is cold comfort if you do find yourself in the situation.
     
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