When will leisure craft adopt the new sailing systems?

Many Leisure "Cruising" Sailors would love to have a proven, engineered Flettner Systems, if they were available, I am sure.
That previous video of the yacht pounding through rough seas is testimony to the abject misery of even a modern sailing vessel.

But, the Flettner wind assist isn't as beneficial for the "pleasure craft", as it would be for small working ships.
(A) The cost/benefits of smaller commercial systems have been done years ago, like this 1983 article. And with modern materials, it must be even more compelling.

Everything Old is new again - Flettner Rotor Ship is launched https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/everything-old-is-new-again-flettner-rotor-ship-is-launched.24081/page-2#post-393067



I have seen many comments from commercial fishermen for example, that complain about $6,000 of Diesel per trip, and the rough WINDY Weather.


(B) Performance to Sail - Calculated in the 1930's
The Comparative performance has been know for over 100 years

Just look at the size of the Rotors required to replace the old sail system on the original Flettner Rotor Ship, in fig 48

BUT
Many of the larger Flettner Rotor systems are only economical IF the winds are advantageous, and substantial.
Modern boats have to make schedule, and often commercial demands make a few bucks saved on fuel less significant.
When you think how modern Jetliners consistently select optimal altitudes to take advantage of known wind patterns to save fuel, it can only be a matter of time before we see bigger inroads of wind-assisted systems in the smaller commercial boats.

 

I have researched your system. I do understand how it is controlled. You have not shown that in overall operation it is easier than a conventional rig. You have not shown that it "weathercocks" so quickly that it doesn't produce very heavy forces when the boat is moored - even some boats with just wingmasts do that. You have not shown that it is easier to use on a cat when tacking up a narrow channel in light winds, when a jib can be useful to force the head around. You have not shown that it will be better in a mid-Atlantic storm.

If you had a small bermudan rig on a soft mast on that Hawke cat, it could probably have been handled just as easily and gone just as fast, even with minimal sheet adjustment.

The "other builders" seem to have gone quiet. Why should we believe that their faith in the rig is correct, when that means that the faith of other builders in other rigs is incorrect?

Of course I can dispute that there's doubt that your rig will be faster area for area than conventional sails. The wing sails on 18 Square Metre catamarans, A Class catamarans and Moths were slower than the equivalent area "soft" sails. So, apparently, were the wingsails used in Lasers, Force 5s, etc. Wingsails in some other classes are faster than "soft" sails but that is not always true in all classes. And of course, if a solid wing is heavier (as they almost inevitably are) then a simple area-for-area comparison can be misleading.

To say that a carbon sparred, 3Di sloop is "exactly the same" as an 1800 hemp sailed gaff cutter is like saying that the Concorde is exactly the same as the Wright Flyer because they both use wings pushed by engines.

 

How can it not be easier than a conventional rig when it is controlled by one lever and can go in reverse at will?

 

1- I have researched your system. I do understand how it is controlled. You have not shown that in overall operation it is easier than a conventional rig. You have not shown that it "weathercocks" so quickly that it doesn't produce very heavy forces when the boat is moored - even some boats with just wingmasts do that. You have not shown that it is easier to use on a cat when tacking up a narrow channel in light winds, when a jib can be useful to force the head around. You have not shown that it will be better in a mid-Atlantic storm. you have not shown that works well in many conditions at all.

If you had a small bermudan rig on a soft mast on that Hawke cat, it could probably have been handled just as easily and gone just as fast, even with minimal sheet adjustment.

2- The "other builders" seem to have gone quiet. Why should we believe that their faith in the rig is correct, when that means that the faith of other builders in other rigs is incorrect?

3- Of course I can dispute that there's doubt that your rig will be faster area for area than conventional sails. The wing sails on 18 Square Metre catamarans, A Class catamarans and Moths were slower than the equivalent area "soft" sails. So, apparently, were the wingsails used in Lasers, Force 5s, etc. Wingsails in some other classes are faster than "soft" sails but that is not always true in all classes. And of course, if a solid wing is heavier (as they almost inevitably are) then a simple area-for-area comparison can be misleading.

4- To say that a carbon sparred, 3Di sloop is "exactly the same" as an 1800 hemp sailed gaff cutter is like saying that the Concorde is exactly the same as the Wright Flyer because they both use wings pushed by engines. The 3di sails aren't even cloth, by the dictionary definition; they are laminate film.

There are also plenty of sails that aren't "cloth" sails, that have wing-like double-edge leading edges and a rigid aerodynamic form with camber locked in, and have no sheet. The simple and undeniable fact, proven by decades of experience, is that all-round they are only a few percent faster than good "soft" sails, even in classes that are ideally suited to them.



5- There is simply NO realistic "claim and counter-claim" about your statement that races are only open for restricted classes. That statement is NOT true.

Why do you make statements that are not true, and why did you misleadingly refer to yourself in the third person?

 

You're talking good sense here. I'm afraid the discussion drifted off topic with CT249 - I really just wanted to find out how traditional yachtspeople viewed the new systems because I really think many of them don't know about them. Here are some pictures https://www.econowind.nl/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PHOTO-2022-05-25-20-22-21.jpg https://images.ctfassets.net/g2cz03...rgo_web.jpg?fm=webp&q=60&fit=fill&w=800&h=775

 

Why is that easier than a tiny bermudan sail, sheeted on to suit a close reach, and not adjusted at all? Such a sail could probably do everything the sails in the video do; that is, drive a boat slowly around in good conditions.

All the rest is merely claims from someone who refers to himself as if he was someone else.

 

The money wasted represents any number of lost opportunities; lost opportunities to develop,invent,build something that is actually useful and effective. Something that has a tangible benefit beyond simply, in the end, flinging dollars to the winds in the fond hope that their random disbursement will benefit someone....somewhere.

I've been in volved in a lot of "pure R&D" over my career and that is one area where money is spent without any guarantee of a near-term payback..or any return on investment at all. But that is far removed from "applied engineering and naval architecture", even in a development environment.

 

I don't think you could sail around with it without adjusting it? Your tiny Bermudan sail has to be raised and lowered adjusted for different wind directions - eased in gusts, you have to know about sailing to operate it. With the system "Worsley Chap" advocated you don't have to do any of this, and you can go in reverse just as fast as going forward. Are you shouting and getting angry? There is no need to be.

 

So you don't know.
OK.

 

Of course I don't know. Why should I know. I'm just asking if people are aware of the systems, and I they want to find out - go to the installers and check out their figures and decide if they are true or not. However, I will say that since these systems are up and running now we will see how good they are. I should think they should be able to provide some fuel savings and least and the operators will continue to fit them if they are effective.

 

There is that...

 

A key phrase is "Properly shown".
Variations of the wording are constantly used as an excuse by those who are always searching for "problems" to solve.
When their solutions are not rapidly/extensively/gleefully accepted by the majority they commonly blame it as a "Messaging problem".
"Why doesn't everybody see how much better my ideas are".
"If we do better at communicating then people will see".
It always points to a not-so-subliminal message that "We know better than you".
A different iteration, (not particularly germane to this discussion,) but in a similar vein and taken to a higher level might be,
"You will do this, and you will like it".
I still posit that rotors/gearing/shafts/propellors are not in ANY way even close to the essence of "sailing for leisure", it's just using a different form of mechanical device(s) to turn a prop.
And that ain't "Sailing", no matter how "proper" the message is.

 

Probably been posted before in one of the other thread discussions of alternative wind propulsion, but it’s worth a watch to understand the amount of work involved in designing, fabricating, and adapting a rotor system as described by a knowledgeable and accomplished boat designer and builder.

Sadly in the end, if I remember correctly, he couldn’t give the boat away.

 

Addressing the original question, I'm a common poor working class leisure sailor, I sail an old second hand trailer sailer and I don't race, I can't afford new sails so I keep my old wind bags until they're un useable, and then look for something else second hand and not too stretched or damaged to replace them. No racing budget or sponsorship, groceries and rent comes first, and other essentials. Unless your rig is comparatively and competitively priced to my meagre budget, and has enough benefits to warrant changing the dynamic of my boat to a different system, I'll look in interest but not buy. I don't care if it has a reverse gear, if it's not better as a normal boat going ahead, compared to an old fashioned sail boat. If it's cheap and it works better, I won't resist change, when I can afford it, and when parts are readily available for repairs.

Scale is another issue: I don't think I'd enjoy, (leisure) my non ballasted 10 foot sailing dinghy the same with a flettner rotor or similar, and a small motor to drive it around, flopping about in short chop, or in bigger faster boat's wakes. My little sailboat gets compliments on its cuteness as a sailboat; I doubt any other propulsion would get similar praise on looks; not that it does any good, except for other people's viewing pleasure, and my ego, and for selling. Most leisure boats owned by common people won't be big enough to benefit more than the bother, unless someone sells ready made purpose designed useful craft, which work better than what else exists. Or if they have some type of fashion thing, sex appeal, that people want, or a large special interest following. In my 60 odd years I've not personally seen anything different and useful beyond the Calypso, seen once in port my me, so these systems just aren't that popular for what reason ? What could make them fashionable and popular - hypnotic designs as they spin, light shows from on top, or cost efficient performance, and inexpensive ongoing maintenance, and substantial fuel savings.

Even sailboats that are well known dogs to sail or otherwise use, keep on being used, and bought, and sold because they are useful, despite their often moaned about failings, and some people love their worthless inefficient sail boat because it does something for them. I have rarely seen alternative wind powered boats up for sale, because they're not common, - why aren't they common, and never took off over many decades, with tinkerers and inventors all over the world testing their ideas regularly. For normal use they're no improvement on standard designs, but have added complexity and expense. If a backyard mechanic can't maintain and repair it easily, and have equal power and versatility, and more fun than bother, they aren't going to mess with it. If it turns turtle and isn't self righting, or able to be righted and bailed out by the crew safely and easily, few will be interested. If a mum doesn't think she will be safe, (regardless of facts), she won't take her family, so dad won't buy it.

Simple push button controls: does anyone remember Apollo 13, and one push button ? Electrical and mechanical systems, in marine environments especially, have hidden weakest links which fail under stress. Ropes, sheaves, shackles, sails, and most ancient sailing gear can be thoroughly inspected by anyone, and a ***** can tell if something isn't right and may fail, with minimal training. After an oceanic disaster, traditional sailing rigs can be jury rigged with scraps of sail and broken spars and heaps of ropes to tie stuff together with. If your alternative systems are wiped out, they may damage the hull in their failure, and what have you got to work with after the tempest: little fabric to make a sail, bent metal, useless electrics (for driven systems), bent shafts, levers, pivots, rods etc., endless un repairable items, gears, bearings. You'd better hope the radio mast is still OK, because you're probably going nowhere, unless the good old diesel and propeller are still OK.

Bottom line for any invention or concept is "Show us"!
Not in ideal conditions, but when conditions are borderline destructive, and lives are dependent on the weakest link.
It's fun to tinker and invent, and I enjoy my failures as a learning experience, but nothing I've made so far was better than what existed, after thorough testing, so they remain curios, or hit the bin.
Using the KISS principle, what's simpler than a sail, and ropes to control it, repairable on a deserted tropical island, even on Gilligan's Island, with his 'help'.
I've probably waffled on too much here, but it's a long and involved thread. New ideas are good. Better ideas are better.

 

Um, you are talking about a Movie prop, that was bought from a wreckers yard, after the makeshift, wooden rotors were mounted for a three day photoshoot.
Lets not make up false memes here.