What type of design or hull form is this? Please see fotos.

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Tropical Sailor, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Hello Everyone,

    I´m new, so here´s a short introduction. My name is Andy Lyons. I´m from Texas, but living on Yucatáns Northern Coast aboard my 27´sailboat. I left Texas 8 years ago and have been here (Yucatán) since 2009. I don´t have internet, so I have to travel 2 hours by bus to use decent internet. I found this site a few weeks ago and unfortunately have become addicted. (Unfortunately because of the time and cost of using the internet) Since then, I spend several hours reading this forum every time I come to town. I read all of Richard´s (Apex1) thread on his Ultimate Passage Maker. It was a very long thread and so sad. But it left me wanting to know what happened to the boat. Did he ever build it? The same happened when I read Daniels thread of his wooden houseboat Project. It ended suddenly and it left me with a feeling as if I had read all of a long novel, only to find out the last pages were missing.

    Here are the pictures of the boats I´m interested in Identifying. This type of fishing boat has all but been replaced here in Mexico with the modern panga style and 40hp Yamaha.

    ******** Please see the photos below in the 3rd post. They weren´t reproduced in this one. Sorry! **********

    Thanks,
    Andy
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Hi Andy, welcome to the forum. You photos didn't come through, can you try again?

    Richard (Apex1) is no longer on the forum and has undergone some substantial personal issues, just before and considerably since leaving the forum. He's now recovering and getting back in gear. He's a type that's not going to be held down for long and will find a way to be successful again.

    You'll find a lot of threads and projects start with good intentions, but life and other things tend to get in the way. Daniel's boat is finished and he's enjoying it as we talk. It turned out wonderfully and his web site has photos of it underway, with he and his son at the helm.

    [​IMG]

    Daniel's boat on a mooring.

    As to your other questions and references to the photos - well without them, it's tough to comment. See if you can post them in the gallery.
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. Tropical Sailor
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    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Hello Everyone,

    I´m new, so here´s a short introduction. My name is Andy Lyons. I´m from Texas, but living on Yucatáns Northern Coast aboard my 27´sailboat. I left Texas 8 years ago and have been here (Yucatán) since 2009. I don´t have internet, so I have to travel 2 hours by bus to use decent internet. I found this site a few weeks ago and unfortunately have become addicted. (Unfortunately because of the time and cost of using the internet) Since then, I spend several hours reading this forum every time I come to town. I read all of Richard´s (Apex1) thread on his Ultimate Passage Maker. It was a very long thread and so sad. But it left me wanting to know what happened to the boat. Did he ever build it? The same happened when I read Daniels thread of his wooden houseboat Project. It ended suddenly and it left me with a feeling as if I had read all of a long novel, only to find out the last pages were missing.

    Here are the pictures of the boats I´m interested in Identifying. This type of fishing boat has all but been replaced here in Mexico with the modern panga style and 40hp Yamaha.

    1.jpg

    2.jpg
    The one on the right.

    3.jpg

    4.jpg

    5.jpg

    6.jpg

    7.jpg

    Imagen037.jpg

    Imagen039.jpg

    The shape of the hull reminds me of these sailboats I saw in Belize in 2005. They still power their fishing boats with sails in belize.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/103794958@N03/10024798666/
    Cruise 120.jpg

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/103794958@N03/10024868443/
    Cruise 118.jpg

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/103794958@N03/10024739844/
    Cruise 119.jpg

    Any help appriciated. Useful info, details, name of style. Is it a vernacular style developed here for use here or is it a copy of some older boat from the somwhere else?

    Is it perhaps a flat transom derivative of the Mullet Skiff?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/103794958@N03/10025275454/
    Mullet Skiff.png

    Like this one by Jeff Spira:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/103794958@N03/10025492636/
    Jeff Spira Mullet Skiff.png

    And if it is a known style of boat, does anyone know where I can find plans for one?

    If your interested in knowing why I want to know, please ask. But I´m ending this post for now becuase it´s getting long and if I start taking about "why" it will get a lot longer.

    Thanks,
    Andy
     
  4. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Thank you PAR for your welcome. I´m glad to hear that Richard is recovering. After reading such long threads I feel like I already know him and you and Daniel and others from their posts. Well, if not "know", then at least one gets an insight into the character, mindset, and personality of the members from their posts. I love Daniel´s boat. It looks so robust.

    I have reposted my original thread using the attachments buton on the interface to post the original pictures. But they came out as thumbnails. I would like them to be full size like the one of Daniel´s boat that you posted. I will investigate how to use the gallery on this fórum. Because the attachments función only allows you a very limited amout of images.

    If you have moderator privlages, please erase the thread without photos. Can you tell me what I did wrong? I used the insert image buton on the interface. The yellow one with an image of a mountain or landscape. And there I linked to the photos on flickr. Is flickr no compatible with this fórum?

    You´ll have to excuse me if some words come out wrong. The interface for posting on this site detects my mexican IP and tries to correct my spelling based on Spanish instead of English. The whole page is underlined in red and it automaticly replaces some of the words for spanish ones. Then I have to reread several times and change them back to English.

    Thanks,
    Andy
     
  5. Boat Design Net Moderator
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    Boat Design Net Moderator Moderator

    Welcome to the forum Andy. You can include images inline using IMG tags from sites such as flickr, but what is inside IMG tags has to be the url of the actual jpg image, not an html page. If you right click on your flickr image you should be able to copy the url of the actual photo (ending in .jpg), or see if there is a bbcode option ready for you to copy and paste.
    (The attachment function inserts thumbnails into the post to keep bandwidth down for those on limited bandwidth connections and the thumbnails can be clicked for the full size image.)
     
  6. Tropical Sailor
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    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Thank you very much. Next time I´ll know.


    Please, if anyone can help me identify this design or style please post a response. Or if anyone has a plan for a very similar design, please advise.

    One other question. Do you think this hull would plane with the inboard motor shown in the pictures?


    Thanks,
    Andy
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It's difficult to tell what you've shown there, but it appears to be several different types of designs, though with some similarities. They look to be traditional working craft, but as to specifics, well the photos just don't provide enough information.

    These designs typically don't fully plane off, though if over powered they can reach semi plane speeds. They're designed to carry a hefty load safely, more then jump up on plane.

    Maybe it would be better if you just told us what you'd like to do.
     
  8. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

  9. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Thanks jehardiman,

    I will google the llaut and felucca styles. I love history, especially nautical history. I looked at the two designs. I like the lines of the Sylvia II better, at least the view from on top looking down. I love that double ender shape. So would you consider a Florida Mullet Skiff to be usable for the same purpose as the boats I pictured in the post above?

    Andy
     
  10. Tropical Sailor
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member



    Thank you PAR. Sorry about the photos. I had to edit many of the pictures because the boat was just in the background and I had to zoom in on it to cut out the people in the foreground. I realize that the boats in Belize are different from the first nine pictures. But I think the first nine pictures show very similar designs, just that some have a modified wheel house or deck or something else. Obviously in the second picture I´m referring to the one on the right.

    (Sorry it´s taken so long to answer. I´ve had trouble trying to get my photos from the boat design gallery posted here. I finaly gave up and used flickr. Hope it works, well here we go:)

    You’re probably right. Maybe I should just explain what I´m trying/thinking about doing. It might be a little long, but here I go.

    As you know, I´m from Texas, but living on Yucatan´s Northern coast. What I didn´t explain is that I´m a volunteer teacher at the community center in a small fishing village. This little town is one of the smallest on Yucatan´s northern coast. I´m teaching a group of young people (13-18 y/o) skills that they can use to generate a better life for themselves. For the majority of young men in these small coastal fishing towns there are very few opportunities. And even less for the young ladies. Most will either have to leave home looking for work in Cancun or work as fishermen. Don´t get me wrong!! There is nothing wrong with being a fisherman. On the contrary, it´s an ancient and honorable profession. The problem is that most fisherman here only make about $6-$8 per day. It´s almost impossible to live on that amount of money. Believe me, I´ve tried and I keep trying. I live on my sailboat here and you might not think of a 27’ sailboat as being very comfortable or well appointed, specially a 36 year of Cal 2-27, but compared the homes of most of these boys it truly is. They have no furniture or appliances except for a few hammocks and maybe a table. So I try to limit my spending to what the locals make in a day, and it´s nearly impossible to buy enough food and soap and hygiene products for one person, let alone a whole family. And on that kind of salary when could you ever afford a refrigerator or gas stove or your own boat so that you could be the captain and make some real money. There is only an Elementary School here. If a child wants to study middle or High School their parents have to send them to a larger town 2 hours away to live and study. So, I teach English, Math, and some History. Also, “life skills” and ecological responsibility. But so many of my students showed an interest in my boat that I began giving sailing lessons (a lost art here) to some of the boys. (Please don´t think of me as some kind of green Hippie out to save the whales or world or whatever, I never thought of myself as that sort of person before, but as I get older I do seem to be adopting more and more of that philosophy.)

    The more time I spend here, the fonder I grow of the people in the village in general and even more so of my students, specially the boys whom I´m teaching to sail. Most of these boys are sons of fishermen and many have already started going out to fish with their fathers or others. The problem here is the pay. And as young men and boys they only receive half of what adult men are paid. And even as adults they will never make more than about $8 a day. The only people that make good money fishing here are the owners of the boats and the captains. If the captain owns his own boat he makes very good money. If the owner is one person and the captain is another, they general split the profit after expenses. Or sometimes the captain has to pay a daily fee for the boat and handle his own expenses of gasoline, pay his helpers and sometimes even do the maintenance even though it’s not his boat. And even so, he still can make a pretty good living compared to the rest of the people in the town. The sad thing is that there is almost no chance that any of these boys will ever be able to grow up and own their own boat. There are many reasons. Most are political. Mexico for 70 years was a one party system. There were technically other political parties, but they never won. The PRI controlled all of Mexican politics for 70 years. It was/is truly a dictatorship by people behind the scenes. The presidents and governors and mayors were just elected puppets for the people in power. A system like this becomes very corrupt from its inception. So when the government started giving subsidies for the common people in fishing villages to buy boats and motors to fish with, the people in charge of the local governments made sure that those benefits and subsidized craft only made it into the hands of their political allies, family and friends. So now, many decades later, if your family is not one of those with the right political connection you´ll never be able to qualify for any of the programs which supply boats, motors, replacement boats and motors or anything else.
    I´ve spent a lot of time trying to find a way to help these boys and the people in general, besides just classes and lessons. There is a small fish packing house in most of these coastal towns. They were built by the government so the locals could merchandize their catch more easily. If my boys had boats it would open up a lot of opportunities for them and their families. They could fish and sell their catch to the packing house like all the other captains. Therefore providing a much higher standard of living for their families. But if they learned to build fishing boats, (another lost art here) they would have even more opportunities. And they could even give seminars and help others in other towns to learn the same skills after I´m gone. Kind of passing along the tradition and helping a much larger community that just their own town. I would like to think that they would freely give what they received. Many are very noble boys. So this brings me to my original question of what type of boat was in the pictures. I asked because this type of boat is found up and down the coast, drawn up on the beaches, or moored in the harbors, or behind someone’s house, or just abandoned anywhere. And for the most part they are just rotting away. As I looked at these boats they seemed to be more sea kindly and stable than the panga style which is what dominates the small scale fishing on both of Mexico´s coasts. So I thought that if my boys learned to build this older style boat for themselves they could use the more efficient hull form and a small inboard (maybe even a non-marine engine like a horizontal shaft Briggs and Straton type) and sails to start fishing for themselves with much less costs in fuel than what the panga fishermen use. A panga captain spends from $80-$100 a day in gasoline and oil for their 40hp 2-stroke Yamahas, which dominate the panga scene here. They generally fish from 12-20 km off shore. There is an octopus, squid, sea cucumber, and shrimp season here. And all year fishing for grouper and other commercial fish. They Dive for the sea cucumbers with no tanks or regulators, only a small gasoline powered air compressor and a hose in their mouths. There are several deaths every year of divers. The gasoline motors of the air compressors are Chinese knockoffs of the Honda overhead cam motor (which looks to me a lot like the Briggs and Straton Intek). I mention this because they have experience repairing and maintaining these small engines, so if one was to adapt them to a propeller shaft on an inboard setup like I mentioned, combined with an efficient displacement hull and sail power, one could realize great initial savings over the cost of a marine diesel and long term savings in fuel over the diesel inboards and much more savings when compared to the 40hp Yamaha/panga combination. Gasoline is subsidized by the Mexican government. It’s cheaper here than in the states, but its rising every month.

    Simply put, here´s the benefits I want to give my boys.
    1. Another possible profession – Boat builer/repairer
    2. A chance to fish for themselves and not to spend their whole lives as a hand/crew on someone else´s boat.
    3. Improve the ecology – eliminate 2 stroke motors and high gasoline consumption (which is also a benefit for the boys who would have less costs, both initial and long-term.)
    4. And who knows in 20 or 30 years gas might be so scarce that there is a general return to sail or motor sailing for fishermen. And my boys would have a head start for that.
    5. Another economic opportunity for them – based in eco-tourism. And that´s what I what to talk about now.

    I envision an ecotourism industry that could one day support many families here. There already exists an industry for tourism and eco-tourism in the area, but it could be developed so much more and in a sustainable way. Almost all of the west half of the northern coast of Yucatan is a wildlife reserve. For this reason there are no great hotels or large corporations trying to exploit these beautiful waters and beaches. And there won´t ever be because of strict national laws and even international accords that protect this area. On these beaches each year the marine sea turtles lay their eggs and from here the baby turtles make their journey to the sea. The famous pink flamingos are here as well as many species of fish and fowl. The estuary behind us is full of life and an important breeding ground for the shrimp and other species. Here are some links about the different bio-sphere´s.

    http://www.riolagartos.com
    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rea_de_protecci%C3%B3n_de_flora_y_fauna_Yum_Balam
    http://www.holboxtravel.com.mx/isla-holbox/reserva-yum-balam.html


    Using only the existing tourism infrastructure I see how to generate jobs for these boys using intelligent and ecological hull and propulsion design. The panga from 25’ – 33’ with 40hp Yamaha is the standard fishing boat here as I already mentioned, but it also serves as the only transport for tourists who want to get from the towns on the mainland, across the estuary to the island beaches in front of them. And for those towns like ours who are on the island beaches, it serves as transport to get to the mainland, as well as a tourism opportunity for tours of the estuary and to the “water eyes” or “ojos de agua” as they are called here, which are where the fresh water from the underground cenote system opens up from underneath the sea or estuary creating an area of constantly flowing fresh water surrounded by saltwater. The Estuary tours include the famous pink flamingos and the incredible views through absolutely clear water of the crabs and fish below. Here are some pictures of the fishing pangas being used for tours.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Here are the web sites for the two biggest manufactures of pangas.
    http://www.imemsa.com.mx/lanchas.html and http://www.astillerosmimsa.com/us/pangas.php

    As you can see from the web sites, the pangas are very heavy. One of the websites says that their 30’ panga weighs 5500 pounds with a load capacity of 8000 pounds. That’s just the hull with benches, no cabin or wheel house. And the hulls don’t look very efficient for low speeds. I´m sure they work great for the fishermen at higher speeds, I see them every day speeding out in the mornings and returning in the evenings. But since we’re talking about tourism, you have to take into consideration how the pangas are used for tours and transportation. The “taxi” boat drivers and tour operators have their 40hp Yamahas throttled down so low that they seem like they´re going to shut off after every “put, put, put-put”. Obviously they are trying to save as much on gasoline cost as possible. Unlike the fishermen who want to get out there as quick as possible, the taxi driver just wants to get his customers across estuary as cheaply as possible or the tour guide who goes slow so the tourists can see everything and feel like they´re getting their $120 worth of sightseeing.

    So, wouldn´t it make both economic and ecological sense to use a lighter, more efficient, displacement hull with electric propulsion for tourism and transport? Maybe even one made with stitch and glue or ply over frame construction that can be done by the locals themselves, without need of government subsidy or political association. If you look at the link below, you´ll see that is it only one km from the dock to the beach across the estuary in this small coastal town.

    https://maps.google.com.mx/?ll=21.573883,-88.227296&spn=0.018478,0.030556&t=h&z=15


    With short distances of 1-8 km for most tours, and an efficient and light hull, wouldn´t an electric inboard (say 500-1500 watts) and a small battery bank and maybe 20 sq. meters of solar panels be able to propel the craft at the same speeds as the heavy fishing pangas and their throttled down 2 strokes (which go about 2-3 knots) ? And wouldn´t it be able to do so for much less costs. Even if you had to recharge the batteries every time you docked, shore power is not expensive. (Electricity is subsidized here also.) That would allow you to buy solar panels as you grow your business. And eventually you wouldn´t need shore power at all. With 20 sq. meters of PV you´d have as much as 4000 watts available during peak hours, which would also probably be your working hours, which would mean that your providing all the energy needed for propulsion and able to charge the batteries with what remains. If you built a roof to replace the tarp seen in the above pictures (and below also), then you´d be able to place your panels there. A roof 2.5m x 8m would give you the 20 sq. meters on say a 10m boat. You could probably increase the wattage of your motor to as much as 4kw with this system and still not need a huge battery bank. Every time you dock the batteries are being charged and there is no drain until your next customers come along. Or there´s always shore power.

    [​IMG]

    Above you saw the pictures of the pangas with a tarp for shade, taking tourist across the estuary. Wouldn´t it be a nicer ride in something like this.

    [​IMG]

    Or this.

    [​IMG]

    And to make the project less costly to start, why not a trolling motor instead of a more expensive custom electric inboard installation. Like this.

    [​IMG]

    I read that minkota has developed trolling motors that use variable frequency modulation, or electric pulses, like modern electric cars, to control motor speed. They say it increases battery charge duration by 500%. If it is a similar technology to the controllers in modern electric cars then it probably does increase range by 5 times. As the tourism industry develops here and the boys find themselves in better economic postitions, they could use torqeedos or other products that come along. 4000 watts is a good charge and you should realize that we are in a much lower latitude than in the states so the angle that sun hits us is better for a flat roof than in the north.

    What about this with a custom solar panel roof and 4kw inboard motor and keel designed to hold a long row of AGM Batteries? Wouldn´t she be pretty? And efficient?

    [​IMG]
     
  11. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Andy,

    You are doing some similar things to what I am wanting to do in Ukraine.

    Better paying work, and a better economy, helps everyone.

    It is very sad to see how badly one-party systems did the people, and just as bad to see that beginning in America. We are still the best, but at the rate our economy is being sent offshore, how much longer until our 'boys' are struggling as much as the Ukrainians and Mexicans.

    PS Yucatan is where I want to build my third office, first Texas, second Ukraine, third Ole Mexico ....

    Be safe,

    Wayne
     
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    PS for tourism, you might check out some of the designers on the board who design catamarans - a more stable platform is always better for tourists.

    PSS - I forgot the company's name, and CANNOT find it on American internet. But, there is a company providing satellite internet in central Mexico at very reasonable costs.

    I met some people using it when I was in San Miguel de Allende. And it was cheaper internet access than what I am using in the USA. Of course, Ukraine internet is MUCH cheaper - about 10% the outrageous costs in USA.

    If I remember correctly, it was $40/month. And I think it allowed VoIP, but that was 4 years ago, so I do not trust my memory entirely. But, searching US internet, I could not find anything even remotely similar, at under $200/month. Maybe you can find a norteño using something like it in Yucatan.

    Where are you at in Yucatán?
     
  13. kerosene
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    kerosene Senior Member

    Tropical sailor - the PWM (pulse width modualtion) controllers have been put to all kinds of cheap trolling motors. Its not that complicated DIY project I believe.

    The 500% gain is unrealistic though. At max speed the resistor based speed control gives all the juice to the motor - this will mean equal efficiency to more modern speed controller. 500% claim is worst case scenario comparison and really doesn't have much point in my opinion.
     
  14. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Hola Güero,

    Thanks for your support! I´d enjoy hearing more about what you're doing in Ukraine. The only satellite internet I´ve ever seen here is Hughes. The hardware is very expensive here. About $1500 US. It´s probably much cheaper in the states. But I´ve never seen a gyro stabilized dish (like on RV´s for satellite TV) that was compatible with Hughes and worked on a boat. (A boat would move a lot more than a RV, even in a slip.) I´m sure they make them, they´re just probably really costly. The first time I came to Yucatán was on a Carnival Cruise and we had internet service all the way across the Gulf, so I´m sure it´s possible. But, you´re right the plans are expensive. So even if I decided to invest in the hardware, the monthly service costs would add a real strain to my budget. I´ve simplified my life greatly from when I worked in the states. I live on less than a tenth of what I spent every month back home. I have a maximum budget of $600 a month and I try to keep it well below that amount. The basic plans from Hughes a few years ago gave you 512kb/second bandwidth and unlimited data transfer for about $40 or $50/month. These were the rates that the customers were paying to Direct TV when Hughes took control of the internet client base. But when I investigated the service two years ago the rates had gone up to between $100 and $200 a month and the bandwidth had only gone up to 1 Mbs, but they added a daily data cap. So if you used too much in one day they would cut you off or make you buy extra megs or something. So I decided it was better to just take the bus into town and use the internet cafes that are all over Mexico. It gives me a chance to shop. Everything is cheaper in town than on the island. Sometimes I use my Mexican cell phone for internet access but it´s really slow and also expensive. That´s how Carlos Slim became the richest man in the world, on the backs of a 100 million Mexicans. Mexico pays more for telecommunications than any other country. It cost me $100 to download 1 GB of data with Telcel. Youtube can get very costly on my boat.
    Thanks,
    Andy
     

  15. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Kerosene,

    Thank you for the information. That makes sense. Obviously, the manufacturer will exaggerate any benefits they have for the purpose of advertising. That being said, under the application I have in mind for tourism, where very slow speeds are necessary for the tourist to see the wildlife and scenery; I believe there should be a great improvement in range. (I don´t think that full throttle in an electric application is very good for battery performance.)

    Again, I appreciate your input and should the project develop further I would be very interested in investigating and discussing electric propulsion, as it is an important part of the plan I originally described in my post. But what I´m most interested in at this moment is the hull design. Do any of the designers out there have any ideas? Below is a quote from my post:

    “So, wouldn´t it make both economic and ecological sense to use a lighter, more efficient, displacement hull with electric propulsion for tourism and transport? Maybe even one made with stitch and glue or ply over frame construction that can be done by the locals themselves, without need of government subsidy or political association.”

    Does anyone have any ideas or designs that would be beneficial? I´m looking for a light, efficient, easily driven, easily built hull. From my limited knowledge, I thought a displacement hull would be best. The craft is never intended to plane. It probably won´t even be nearing hull speed most of the time. If I´m wrong or if I haven’t taken something into account, please, by all means, tell me where I´m wrong. I thought the batteries might even work as ballast in a displacement hull, but if someone has a suggestion or if you think another hull type would be more stable and just as efficient, please tell me. I think El Guero said something about a cat design. This would have many benefits, like, long slender efficient hulls, great stability, shallow draft and more sq ft of roof for more solar panels. I also had thought of a cat when I was playing around with the idea before, but I eliminated it because I thought the costs and difficulty of the build would be too much for the context of this project. Remember these young men are very economically challenged. And my own boat building experience is limited to a 12’ sailing coffin that I built out of mahogany plywood when I was 14. Obviously, the easiest and maybe the cheapest way to get the tourism project started would be to buy a used or wrecked panga and have the boys do the repairs themselves and add the solar panel roof (maybe just one panel to start) and an elec. Trolling motor. But I would love to see any designs of ideas anyone has.

    Thanks,
    Andy
     
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