What Nicol do I Own?

[gone2long]

Wow, first one looks more like what you'd expect in a cat. Nice.

G2L

 

[gone2long]

Gotta Bow Out for a While

Guys,

Great dialogue, information and advice. I have to bow out for a while as I teach online and am currently swamped.

Hope to get my nose into the books, learn a bit more of the architectural terminology that you guys throw around, and, after that, probably come up with more questions and photos.

Hope I can talk more soon.

Regards to all,

G2L

 

[cavalier mk2]

See if you can contact the old owners and find out anything they can tell you. How far back the conversion was done etc..... It could have been done in the California build then there are good yards in the Philippines etc...There was a ketch rigged Cavalier or 2 on the market in that hemisphere a few years back.

The double bulkheads are reassuring along with the fact that it is sailing.
I think the darker ply color is preservative, epoxy coating after drying out would be good to stabilize moisture levels as Phil says.

Do the frame before you go sailing and have fun cruising. I get something done every year on my boat versus doing it all at once so it stays fun. For sure your boat looks in good shape, remember not to pinch!

 

[gone2long]

As noted in this or other thread, (forget which at this point) the previous owner followed his wife to Cuba when she was transferred there.

I had some contact w. him via email, trying to locate old documentation and specs for the boat, but he said he needed time to unpack all his belongings, sort through everything and produce whatever documents he may still have.

He never did get back to me; but now ( a couple of years later) may be a good time to try to gain his attention - especially if I mention the thread.

He seemed to be a genuinely good guy, but, as with most of us, a bit over-extended.

Thanks for your help and check my latest posts (1/29) in the repair thread.

Regards,

G2L

 

[cavalier mk2]

Starting to make notes on what you have where. It looks like the beams were a modified arrangement at first glance. I'll post later in more detail on the bulkhead project thread.

The quick question 1 would be what thickness is the ply part of the beams and is there any glass of any kind covering it?

2 what thickness are the ama ring frames they tie into?

3 That plug in the wing ama joint is just a plug, what usually adds a radius there is ply, like hat keel knee or a extended part of the decking. In any case make sure it is solid and epoxy glass it.

4 The main benefit of contacting the owner is to see if it has always had those beams. If so you have several thousand miles and years of sea testing in them. If not we need to get more serious about the math.

5 The stock beams and frames do go all the way across the inside of the amas and are tied into ring frames or timbers so what you have seems to be on the right track. knowing the thickness of the ply part would allow some calculations.

I know you posted most of this stuff, I'm double checking and going back through them.

 

[gone2long]

Stay Cool : ) No Hurry

Starting to make notes on what you have where. It looks like the beams were a modified arrangement at first glance. I'll post later in more detail on the bulkhead project thread.

The quick question 1 would be what thickness is the ply part of the beams and is there any glass of any kind covering it?

2 what thickness are the ama ring frames they tie into?

3 That plug in the wing ama joint is just a plug, what usually adds a radius there is ply, like hat keel knee or a extended part of the decking. In any case make sure it is solid and epoxy glass it.

4 The main benefit of contacting the owner is to see if it has always had those beams. If so you have several thousand miles and years of sea testing in them. If not we need to get more serious about the math.

5 The stock beams and frames do go all the way across the inside of the amas and are tied into ring frames or timbers so what you have seems to be on the right track. knowing the thickness of the ply part would allow some calculations.

I know you posted most of this stuff, I'm double checking and going back through them.

Starting to make notes on what you have where. It looks like the beams were a modified arrangement at first glance. I'll post later in more detail on the bulkhead project thread.

The quick question 1 would be what thickness is the ply part of the beams and is there any glass of any kind covering it?

2 what thickness are the ama ring frames they tie into?

3 That plug in the wing ama joint is just a plug, what usually adds a radius there is ply, like hat keel knee or a extended part of the decking. In any case make sure it is solid and epoxy glass it.

4 The main benefit of contacting the owner is to see if it has always had those beams. If so you have several thousand miles and years of sea testing in them. If not we need to get more serious about the math.

5 The stock beams and frames do go all the way across the inside of the amas and are tied into ring frames or timbers so what you have seems to be on the right track. knowing the thickness of the ply part would allow some calculations.

I know you posted most of this stuff, I'm double checking and going back through them.

Yes; I think that I have posted answers to all the above. Take your time and look through everything, relating my dimensions to the photos most lately posted. They will probably be the most helpful.

I am sure that the hollow, "cross beams" (or whatever we should call them) have not been altered since the original build, as they seem so integral to the boat's structure.

If I understand some of what you have past written, the "cross beam" structure of the boat seems to resemble more of what the Sea Runners were built with. Two vertical center beams (though not obvious in the photos) are part of the "cross beam" structure previously noted

Each vertical beam could actually be the center point of a "truss" (not unlike a roof truss) with the angular, hollow "beam" that I have described actually being an inside view of the truss. The truss (if that is what it is) supports the main deck, wing deck, and ama deck, and, at the same time, ties the amas into the main hull. In simpler terms; the "hollow cross beam" we are trying to understand may simply be a truss, boxed in, forward and aft, by bulkheads.

I'm hoping you can visualize all that given the photos, past descriptions and dimensions offered. Also, please forgive my ignorance of the proper terms. I know that such must make deciphering the situation all that more difficult.

Bottom line is how safe she seems and whether she is a Buccaneer, Cav, total misfit, or what : )

Stay cool : ) and visit us in the tropics some day!

G2L

 

[cavalier mk2]

I'm thinking it is more of a conventional box beam type structure between 2 bulkheads than the Searunner sandwich truss connected to a single bulkhead. It is a conventional; approach. My guess is the builder "updated" the plans. We'll sort it out..

I still think it is a modified Cavalier if it started at 36 feet Take a look inside the stern to see if you can see any remains of the old transom structure. The reverse transom with lifting rudder might be a later edition.

I'll get back to you in a couple days after going through my notes etc....

 

[teamvmg]

I'm thinking that she started out as a Kelsall and the floats got modified

Trying to find out more based on the Mocra sail number

 

[cavalier mk2]

You'd be wrong. Except for the beam mods and transome the construction and hull shapes are stock Nicol. This is down to the frame locations, building techniques and brcaing, outboard chainplates, scantlings etc....This would be pretty easy to duplicate on any of the models.

You guys have to remember Derek did just foam tris with very different hull shapes. His yard did build one of the really big Nicol Voyagers however. Call him up if you doubt it.

 

[cavalier mk2]

That picture is great however. Really, they could have used a Wanderer with that deck style. That gets back to my observation on seeing the flat run on his stern picture. Good fun anyway and a pretty boat. Looks like a pretty stock rig too, be nice to see a spreader shot.

I'd also recommend getting a bow pulpit.

 

[cavalier mk2]

Okay here we go.

I think you are fine with the connective strength and basic beam structure. My only question is the 1" wide fore and aft vertical members, are they solid or 2 ply skins with some internal framing/truss? Looking for nail patterns might give a clue. In any case keep an eye on things, wood lets you know.

Some of the beam elements remind me of Norm Cross' R series racers, it is possible the builder/hot rodder borrowed a page from that book.

The ama ring frames connected to the beams are the right size. If you want to be extra careful lay glass biaxial strips set in epoxy connecting the frame to the skin between the stringers. If you don't watch for signs of the glue joint failing from hull panting etc....

I would reinforce the 1/4" ring frames at least on the outboard side. I prefer timber over glass for a number of old school reason. As Phil pointed our if you glue in pieces the same size as the stringers you won't have to mess with notches. For a cedar use 3/4" to 1/2" for a mahogany/ fir 1/2" to 3/8". These just have to be 3-4" wide to the edge of the ring frame cut out.

How well is the cabin tied on? The stock ones have posts running down to the underwing level connected to beams on the outboard side and into those timbers connecting the mainhull to the beams. This keeps them from getting knocked off by a breaking wave. Do those windows allow a corner post? Things to ponder.

I'm attaching one of your pictures of the inside forward. It shows the underwing gunnel (inwale) curving up. These are put in before planking, this is the style you'd find on a Cavalier so I'm sticking to that. The Wanderers I've seen are done differently with a angled flat forward edge.

From the other photos it looks like the forward beam may be set back from this and there appears to be a added underwing curve behind it in the photo? Take a look and let us know. This is one of the elements along with the bunk and storage structure and cut down cabin posts that makes me think the open or vent wing was a later conversion. The amas also have the stock underwing lower gunnel.

A picture of the tops of the 1/4" ama ring frames would be helpful here as on one side or the other there would most likely be remains of the conventional Nicol wing beams which ran across the tops of them all the way to the outboard ama side.

Some of the beam elements seem newer to me, what I think is dark preservative gives everything a uniform look so it is harder to tell.

Can you take a picture of the chainplate timbers inside the ama? The aft one reminds me of the ketch set up though I suppose you are using it for a running backstay. Another conversion thought...

As mentioned a pulpit on the pointy end would be nice.

 

[cavalier mk2]

I forgot to add that I'd figure out a way to tie the beam into the outer ama sides. In certain situations a side benefit is protection from crushing. A friends Piver held off a 80 foot tug that pinned it against a dock in a storm. It needed repairs but lived to tell the tale.

 

[gone2long]

Definitely have 2 "beams"

There are definitely two cross beams, with major bulkheads defining the fore and aft sections of the main cabin (galley and saloon area).

Thanks again,

G2L

 

[gone2long]

PM me on this photo ...

... Need to know where you got (took it). Looks like a familiar backdrop and the boat looks an awful lot like mine.

Lets talk more via PM.

Thanks,

G2L

 

[gone2long]

Will look closer at some of the elements you note; but may have to let this discussion lay dormant for a while, as school has begun once again.

Also, I need to talk to the guy who posted that photo, as, I believe that photo is an actual shot of my boat, when it belonged to the previous owner. I think I know the guy who took the shot, and I will PM him, but I kinda doubt he would know much about the specs on the various architectural elements. Do the sail markings tell you anything we don't already know?

Thanks for your input,

G2L