What makes the best offshore cruising yacht

[Nick.K]

This has become the forum to find ugly white boats

Yours is a good looking boat...it literally stands out a mile away, but surely you'll allow that others can have different ideas? You have possibly done more cruising miles that anyone currently writing on the forum, certainly very many more than me...so give us some benefit of your experience. What's good and why?

 

[Angélique]

Below the prop of the Hallig 35 C you see a Fisher Northeaster 30', she ain't white and is more of a sailboat than her looks will tell, and she is also a good sea boat with much live aboard space. If these items score high on your SOR and she fits your budget, then she might be the best offshore cruising yacht which can be thought of. You might see some of them in your current region. Barlow is the Oz version of Fisher, here's a Barlow 32 surfing . .

As for the Hallig, on my SOR 1' of draft is the absolute maximum for every 10' LOD, otherwise for me it's a go nowhere boat for her size, I'm willing to give up speed for this, seaworthiness will be even better when the sh¡t hits the fan as you're able to pull up the board when lying behind a sea anchor or lying ahull and will get slide sideways by sea action rather then getting tripped over the keel and being knocked down all the time. Of course I want an AVS of 160° also, with the board up, which is well possible within the given draft, and a sealable boat just for the case that it ever will be needed.

 

[Phil Christieso]

What do these boats have to do with building a new 45 to 50 foot offshore cruising yacht?????????

 

[Nick.K]

OK here is a boat for Phil to comment on. (Sorry, it's also white!) It is based in Clifden Ireland. It was I'm told completely (keel to mast top) the work of one man Arne Hedlund of Denmark, from design to finished construction. The design is inspired Colin Archer but with a transom stern. The hull is steel, the interior is in oak, all solid with an exquisite simplicity and understanding that only comes from a lifetime experience of working with timber. I came to know the boat when it came to the yard for a mast repair which I assisted with. The interior layout is ingenious making the boat feel rather larger than it is.
Colin Archer Steel Ketch http://hugohein.eu/classic.sail/teddy/teddy.specs.htm

 

[Phil Christieso]

Yours is a good looking boat...it literally stands out a mile away, but surely you'll allow that others can have different ideas? You have possibly done more cruising miles that anyone currently writing on the forum, certainly very many more than me...so give us some benefit of your experience. What's good and why?

Nick I'll get back to you with more ideas and why
The slang comes from home - Just another fxxxxx white boat it doesn't mean the colour

 

[Angélique]

What do these boats have to do with building a new 45 to 50 foot offshore cruising yacht?????????

I appreciate any and all input

I forsee our sailing yachts to be in the 35-55 foot range and i am presently working on 3 designs within that range.

 

[Nick.K]

Of course I want an AVS of 160° also, with the board up

Dead handy too to be able to pull it straight out of the deck for maintenance...in this case for blasting I'd say.

 

[Angélique]

Guess so, or maybe they lift it out sometimes when the boat goes on the hard and hose down the dagger and the internal of its casing together with the whole bottom, and then maybe give it all a fresh antifouling paint.

Here's an 23-Oct-2008 listing of a 32', so I doubt she's still available, but in the pictures on two occasions they lift the whole boat on the dagger or somewhere in the casing, and it seems perfectly balanced . .

 

[PAR]

White is the logical choice in tropical and subtropical environments. I can't tell you how many forest green and dark blue boats I've painted over the years, because they were stylish, but unbearable below decks. Even light colors can dramatically affect the temperatures below. I just painted a gray decked boat, white, 20 degrees difference below now. White is boring, so put some bright work on her and a skinny, bright colored cove stripe to be different.

 

[philSweet]

Some observations from the peanut gallery.

Behavior at anchor - It affects hull design and rig placement. Cruisers need to hang on an anchor like a duck. The ONLY thing I wouldn't like about cruising on the Swan 44 is it wasn't designed to sit on an anchor. To get it to do so, you can shift about a ton of weight into the bow to replace the ton of ground tackle you felt you needed to lay out, and maybe fly a small spinnaker off the transom and top off the bow water tank, but really, I don't want to have to do that every time I want to drop a lunch hook. The effect of the lifting keel has to be considered with respect to balance at anchor and rudder loads at anchor. You will almost certainly need to lift the rudder in conjunction with the keel. Locking it over at 90 degrees, even if you can do that, doesn't work, I've tried it.

In contrast to Phil Christieso, you would have to pry my folding propeller from my cold dead hands. I'd give up GPS and VHS before I'd give up my folding prop. Contrary to what he says about drag, if he replaced his wheel with a sensible folding or feathering prop of about 16" in diameter, he could saw ten feet of his mast, get rid of half his sail inventory, and still sail faster on all points, saving thousands of dollars in equipment and reducing the actual manual effort needed to sail from one place to another by nearly half. I can carry my cruising prop around in my shirt pocket. Its blade area is about that of a couple of big steak knives. I have sailed on sister ships to my own that had fixed props, and it just made me cry. I could out-sail them without a mainsail towing my dinghy. That prop of his represents a minimum of 30% of the total drag on the boat at every speed and heading up to hull speed. Under light air downwind conditions, it might well exceed half of total drag. Freespinning the prop usually increases drag on small craft unless the prop shaft is dead horizontal. I burned about 8 gallons of diesel in a six month cruise, so I'm really not keen to drag a useless prop around the other 98% of time. Size the auxiliary propulsion so you can set the anchors. Mine won't always do that; sometimes I have to take a run at it on a firm bottom, which can scare the neighbors in a tight anchorage. But I bet a 16" feathering prop could set every anchor on Phil Christieso's boat. So I guess you will want to have some design flexibility in the propulsion area.

Draft. I value the idea of a lifting keel that can shave 2 or more feet off the draft. I want the performance of a ballasted fin keel, but then I end up anchoring in a tidal rip between islands because it is the only place for 20 miles around that is deep enough. Or, if I could lift the keel, I could often sneak just out of the rip, and spend the evening casting into rip instead of worrying about my anchors. I draft about 7'. I can't always see the bottom to sight navigate. Sailing at 7 knots with 4" under the keel isn't relaxing. Having to find a hole in order to tack isn't relaxing. Having to radio every passing boat to request a zero wake pass because you are pushing bottom mid-channel isn't relaxing, and they don't listen anyway. But performance-wise, I think 7' draft and ICW bridge clearance for the mast is a pretty happy proportion for a cruising sailboat in the US.

Control effort. I think this is what is missing from many the discussions of simplicity vs complex/modern conveniences. If the microwave breaks that's one thing. If the hydraulic furling system breaks that's a bit different. The actual performance penalty you pay for using a lower control effort sail plan is really not that great (compared to the folding prop substitution, say). Jib booms are great labor savers. Main booms that can be slid up the mast to improve headroom and allow a sun cover to be pitched are a terrific feature. This also works as a first reef. Control independence and generous and efficient traveler systems should be a priority, but they tend to get minimized when power winches start to appear. I have no objection whatsoever to power winches, but lines should all be able to be routed to multiple winches in that case, and I am a fan of routing lines in a loop right round the boat. I don't know any cruisers who really value cleaning up the boat with power winches. We still want to be able to run the boat without power, and that entails a certain quantity of line that can be handed at reasonable loads from an assortment of locations. What I do want is the ability to disappear most of it in port to stop it from rotting and getting filthy. This isn't one on my current boat's strong points and it annoys me. Call me a dinosaur, but there is still a lot of good to be said about the Metacentric Shelf method of hull design when it comes to managing the amount of effort needed to keep a cruiser moving at sea.

Rudders can't be too big. The bigger they are, the less power they consume. For a true cruiser, they should be about twice as big as what you find on most pleasure yachts. Double worm gear steering gear ought to be an option (self holding zero feedback).

 

[Angélique]

- - Re post #69 - -
I guess Phil's boat Windora is white for the same good reasons you named there, and also near the equator a lot of materials get far too hot for their own good when having dark colors. It's as Phil says in post #65, ‘‘ just another fucking white boat . . ’’ or ‘‘ that's just again another white boat . . ’’ doesn't have anything to do with the white color of that particular boat, it's slang from many places in the world for a boat that sinks into the mass, or even ends up far below that mass, of faceless average boats in the color white which are dominating many marinas worldwide.

 

[LEADGlobal]

Below the prop of the Hallig 35 C you see a Fisher Northeaster 30', she ain't white and is more of a sailboat than her looks will tell, and she is also a good sea boat with much live aboard space. If these items score high on your SOR and she fits your budget, then she might be the best offshore cruising yacht which can be thought of. You might see some of them in your current region. Barlow is the Oz version of Fisher, here's a Barlow 32 surfing . .

As for the Hallig, on my SOR 1' of draft is the absolute maximum for every 10' LOD, otherwise for me it's a go nowhere boat for her size, I'm willing to give up speed for this, seaworthiness will be even better when the sh¡t hits the fan as you're able to pull up the board when lying behind a sea anchor or lying ahull and will get slide sideways by sea action rather then getting tripped over the keel and being knocked down all the time. Of course I want an AVS of 160° also, with the board up, which is well possible within the given draft, and a sealable boat just for the case that it ever will be needed.

Guess so, or maybe they lift it out sometimes when the boat goes on the hard and hose down the dagger and the internal of its casing together with the whole bottom, and then maybe give it all a fresh antifouling paint.

Here's an 23-Oct-2008 listing of a 32', so I doubt she's still available, but in the pictures on two occasions they lift the whole boat on the dagger or somewhere in the casing, and it seems perfectly balanced . .

​

Great design and balance. Love the idea to be able to pull the keel straight up, and to lift the boat with one pick in the center is pretty ingenious.
Being able to seal up the boat is a must for me. I was in a 7 day storm in the Pacific, singlehanded sailing, and the thoughts that always were on my mind was if my boat went over, how much water would be pouring into the boat before she could right herself again, and unfortunately for my William Garden ketch, it would have been plenty. The boat is just not designed to survive a rollover very well. on the other hand, she is a very stable boat and has a very difficult time even in the worst weather to bury a rail.

Im adding a pic just for Phil C she aint no white plastic thing hahaha

 

[LEADGlobal]

Some observations from the peanut gallery.

Behavior at anchor - It affects hull design and rig placement. Cruisers need to hang on an anchor like a duck. The ONLY thing I wouldn't like about cruising on the Swan 44 is it wasn't designed to sit on an anchor. To get it to do so, you can shift about a ton of weight into the bow to replace the ton of ground tackle you felt you needed to lay out, and maybe fly a small spinnaker off the transom and top off the bow water tank, but really, I don't want to have to do that every time I want to drop a lunch hook. The effect of the lifting keel has to be considered with respect to balance at anchor and rudder loads at anchor. You will almost certainly need to lift the rudder in conjunction with the keel. Locking it over at 90 degrees, even if you can do that, doesn't work, I've tried it.

Lots of things to consider here

In contrast to Phil Christieso, you would have to pry my folding propeller from my cold dead hands. I'd give up GPS and VHS before I'd give up my folding prop.

Yeah I have to agree folding props are the way to go.

Draft. I value the idea of a lifting keel that can shave 2 or more feet off the draft. I want the performance of a ballasted fin keel, but then I end up anchoring in a tidal rip between islands because it is the only place for 20 miles around that is deep enough. Or, if I could lift the keel, I could often sneak just out of the rip, and spend the evening casting into rip instead of worrying about my anchors. I draft about 7'. I can't always see the bottom to sight navigate. Sailing at 7 knots with 4" under the keel isn't relaxing. Having to find a hole in order to tack isn't relaxing. Having to radio every passing boat to request a zero wake pass because you are pushing bottom mid-channel isn't relaxing, and they don't listen anyway. But performance-wise, I think 7' draft and ICW bridge clearance for the mast is a pretty happy proportion for a cruising sailboat in the US.

Definitely on my check list as a Must to have.

Control effort. I think this is what is missing from many the discussions of simplicity vs complex/modern conveniences. If the microwave breaks that's one thing. If the hydraulic furling system breaks that's a bit different. The actual performance penalty you pay for using a lower control effort sail plan is really not that great (compared to the folding prop substitution, say). Jib booms are great labor savers. Main booms that can be slid up the mast to improve headroom and allow a sun cover to be pitched are a terrific feature. This also works as a first reef. Control independence and generous and efficient traveler systems should be a priority, but they tend to get minimized when power winches start to appear. I have no objection whatsoever to power winches, but lines should all be able to be routed to multiple winches in that case, and I am a fan of routing lines in a loop right round the boat. I don't know any cruisers who really value cleaning up the boat with power winches. We still want to be able to run the boat without power, and that entails a certain quantity of line that can be handed at reasonable loads from an assortment of locations. What I do want is the ability to disappear most of it in port to stop it from rotting and getting filthy. This isn't one on my current boat's strong points and it annoys me. Call me a dinosaur, but there is still a lot of good to be said about the Metacentric Shelf method of hull design when it comes to managing the amount of effort needed to keep a cruiser moving at sea.

Storage is always a challenge on boats and seams like the new designs are getting worse at incorporating enough storage lockers and good places to put sails, lines and fowl weather gear. This is something that will be on my mind as I lay out my boats.

Rudders can't be too big. The bigger they are, the less power they consume. For a true cruiser, they should be about twice as big as what you find on most pleasure yachts. Double worm gear steering gear ought to be an option (self holding zero feedback).

So true. I wish I have about 50% more rudder on my boat, especially in a following sea, just takes too much effort to keep the boat on heading, let alone trying to get the autopilot to work.

 

[Nick.K]

Control effort. I think this is what is missing from many the discussions of simplicity vs complex/modern conveniences.

This is a very good point. I think a true off shore boat should have a scale limitation depending on the physical strength of the crew.
I was once employed to help prepare and crew an old and long neglected Whitbread maxi (British Defender) for a delivery from Antibes to Athens. Everything had seized up on the boat and the new owner was so euphoric with his purchase that he completely lost the plot and insisted on us painting the decks instead of getting the steering working etc. We did the thousand mile delivery with just five crew, only two of which had been on a boat before. We could scarcely even lift the sails between us, I remember a major struggle to get one of the foresails out of the boat. At some point we we hit by by squall while having a full main up. Suddenly the forces were well outside our physical capabilities, the sail jammed and as the wind rose to 50 kn the boat became uncontrollable and the sail flogged to shreds. It's an extreme example, but lots of 55ft plus cruisers seem to me to be similarly oversized in relation to their crew.

If a reefing system fails, can the sail be got in by hand. Is it possible to change sails with a normal crew (or in the case of in-mast reefing, possible to change atall?) Can the anchor be recovered without a winch?

 

[Nick.K]

Yeah I have to agree folding props are the way to go.

Folding or feathering?
A feathering prop is a great thing, don't think I'd like to sail offshore with a typical folding one though the Brunton designs look good.

Many trawlers around here have variable pitch props, all manoeuvring is done at a set engine speed just by changing the pitch. It's smooth, especially going from forward to astern and for the scientific skipper it gives plenty of option for best thrust V economy for travelling or towing. I haven't yet come across a pleasure boat with this system though I'm told it exists. Can pitch be set at ninety deg...full feather?