what do you think of SeaSteading?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Squidly-Diddly, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. KarlH
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    KarlH Junior Member

    Yeah, especially since it was made in Thailand. There's at least one Damien II for sale right now with a lower asking price. But maybe the $150k includes the towing and other expenses.

    The nice thing about the spar/buoy is that it could make a handy (and semi-protected) missile launch tube when the adjacent government decides that the owner's "finger" is too much to put up with. (Inevitable.) But they'll need a lot more "fingers" when that happens :)
     
  2. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Make sea 'stead war.
     
  3. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    as a practical matter, Sea Steading would only work if you were frens with a couple powerful politicians on land somewhere to give you cover.
     
  4. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    You would need to enter in some kind of economic relationship with your neighbor anyway to buy and sell whatever you produce.
    But there are many ways to imagine how you could get into conflict with your nearby country if you do things that is against their interest or are offensive (rightfully or not).

    Any kind of project with millions from investors would just require to be explicitly permitted and under jurisdiction of the nearby country. Any seastead not backed by big money would have to find a friendly "patron", maybe one of the island nations threatened by sea level rise.

    I know this is all just crazy pipe dreaming... but is there some info on the structural engineering required to make a modular structure like that oceanix project work? (Which isn't really supported by the UN btw, there just was some round table... looking more closely it's just typical media fluff piece).
    Would a cluster of modules interlinked by bridges like that be able to withstand hurricane cat 5 storms?

    I think the simple way to make a seastead viable long term would be to have about half of people living there being able to work over the internet, e.g. software development. Instead of paying taxes to some country, you'd need some kind of profit sharing. Some kind of cooperative startup with a non speculative business plan.

    Maybe a small source of income could also be a kind of offshore marina or boatyard, or resupply for people crossing the pacific.
     
  5. JamesG123
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    JamesG123 Senior Member

    But you have to be offensive, wealthy, or big enough to be worth their bother. International waters are just that. International. But are subject to international norms and maritime law. If you mind your Ps and Qs and are a good neighbor (or at least find a good neighborhood), the fear of a predatory nation-state is pretty far down the lists of problems to worry about.

    Not really. We are in an age where an individual, much less an organization, can accumulate millions from individual donations, backers, etc. via crowdfunding (gofundme, patreon, kickstarter, etc. etc). The entire cryptocurrency "industry" that has billions "invested" in it and are completely beyond the pale of government controls for the most part.


    Except you can do that from anywhere. Going back to earlier, the only justification for the high cost of this kind of infrastructure and its upkeep is if there some physical location or resource that rationalizes it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
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  6. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    I think resource extraction doesn't really rationalize a large SeaSteading "settlement" either. You'd just build what is needed and haul cheap labour in and out for profits.
    A seastead estate as a new piece of prestigous real estate right next to a metropolis is really the only rational / profitable justification. But even then city planners could solve these problems on land using infrastructure like high speed trains. And it wouldn't really be what the dream of seasteading is about.

    If you find a design that can be manufactured cheap enough and crowdfund it, then there could be other reasons to justify or rationalize it:
    • aesthetic reasons (because it's "cool", more realistic than a mars colony)
    • ideological reasons (small truly social-democratic society)
    • financial reasons (don't want to pay taxes for military and oil extraction)
    • security reasons (persecuted minority or refugees)
    • legal reasons (Ganja? Free speech? Now that might get you into trouble)
    • business reasons (e.g. no import duties or patent or copyright laws)
    You can easily shoot holes in these rationalizations but people do lots of "irrational" things.

    The point I'm trying to make is that it would not HAVE to be more profitable than a similar land based venture. If people believe in this, it only has to be profitable enough to balance imports / exports of goods and services. After watching those youtube videos I think it might be hard to find people who aren't total nutjobs though :)

    If all the building is done on side by the people who are going to live there you could eliminate almost all of the labour costs too. So a lot of the costs and investments and profits stay inside the seastead community. A community of shipwrights, engineers, dreamers and eco-farmers.

    You could start with one platform to build and launch additional modules. You'd only need a cargo ship to transport steel and other raw materials, tools and machines. You'd be importing directly from a chinese factory. The labour could be done by "volunteers" who at the same time learn valuable skills and earn money in their own little cryptocurrency. Not a speculative currency just a decentralized and democratic way to keep track and spend resources without a central link that can cheat or steal.

    Future manufacturing methods might further drive down costs / work. Solar panels, wind and hydroelectric and batteries are also cheap enough now to be competitive with land based energy. If you find enough people who believe in this and have expertise (highly qualified) then it wouldn't be that hard to essentially save a lot of the costs.

    But it all comes down to a realistic design that works and and is engineered well and doesn't need too much materials or work. How much steel and materials you need to build a SWATH type module if you have the right machines? Is it cheaper in an economy of scale than building a cruising sailboat on your own?
     
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  7. KarlH
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    KarlH Junior Member

    Ever since seasteading became a hot topic, I've wondered why the Israeli's don't do it... The cost of expanding through settlements is pretty high relative the quality of the land (no oil, poor weather for agriculture), and there are military costs on top of that.

    My Scandinavian ancestors moved into the Arctic to avoid wars in Europe, then moved to a depopulated part of the territorial USA. Both decisions worked out well for them. Sometimes accepting a new physical threat in lieu of old human threats is a good bet.
     
  8. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    But it's the holy LAND not the holy see.
     
  9. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  10. JamesG123
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    JamesG123 Senior Member

    Because politics. (red alert! red alert!) Nothing cements your claim to a patch of dirt like "ground truth" and "possession (and the ability to defend it) is 9/10ths of the law". So every time the arabs "act up", the Israelis "punish them" by taking more territory away from them.
     
  11. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    The Saigon Skyline in 1993 - from the Palace Hotel rooftop - note at ± 0:26 to ± 0:30 the ex Great Barrier Reef floating hotel moored in the Saigon River on its from Oz and around Asia tour in the 1990's...

     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  12. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Haha I thought the hotel was blown away by a storm to north korea. But apparently the engineering worked pretty well. Not the business part though.

    It cost something like >40 million 1989 for 350 guests.

    Width 27.6 m
    Height from sea level 24.2 m
    Draught 3.0 m
    Freeboard 3.0 m
    Ballast capacity 4000 t
    Fuel oil capacity 200 t
    Potable water supply 150 t/day
    Generating capacity 2300 kW
    Guest accommodation 356
    Staff 98
     
  13. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    The floating hotel was built in Singapore, but according to the 1988 video on top of the page of the first link she lost three pontoons and more in Oz on the Great Barrier Reef already, guess they've fixed that before she went back to Asia, since that was a quite long trip. She was called "the floater" in Saigon, not sure if that was about the building itself, or if she wasn't connected to a sewage system, or both . . :eek:

    I'll think it was a blessing for the Great Barrier Reef she was gone so soon there . . :)

    [​IMG]

    The tennis court in front of the floating hotel on the Great Barrier Reef, pic supplied by the Barrier Reef Holdings.
     
  14. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    There is an environmental impact study linked on the wikipedia page. I think they done their homework. And more tourism might improve environmental protection laws but maybe that is just a figleaf.

    There are also videos about this "biorock" talking about how it can be used to create surfaces for corals to grow on and how you could create a habitat for fishes below your seastead. No idea how realistic that is for an area that is mostly in shadow from the structures above.
     

  15. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Yeah, IMO the main issue will always be plumbing, and handling of "black water". IMO it would be feasible to tack on some large storage tanks and have a tanker deliver fresh water, or lay 200 miles of water hose on ocean floor 2 miles down, but storing and handling Black Water is another whole problem. Getting everyone to use Burner Toilets would be hard, and you need some serious Potty Police. I guess you could figure out general currents and blend the sewage into fine particulates and expel out a pipe at the bottom of the ocean a few miles away.
    I worked on big house where the owner like to entertain but was obsessed with not ruining the party with bad smells from the bathrooms, so there was a robust evac system for the Fart Fans in all the bathrooms, that ducted into a master system that was expelled by one of 4 chimneys at the four corners of the house, the one most downwind would be open with other 3 closed,She was called "the floater" in Saigon, not sure if that was about the building itself, or if she wasn't connected to a sewage system, or both . . :eek:

    I'll think it was a blessing for the Great Barrier Reef she was gone so soon there . . :) so all the expelled air would be pumped not just up but always downwind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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