What Do We Think About Climate Change

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Pericles, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. Knut Sand
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    Knut Sand Senior Member

  2. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Wrong, wrong... and wrong.

    The Spaniards never killed off 90% of the population in Mexico. In case you hadn't noticed, most Mexicans even today are either Indians or mestizos (mixed Indian and European blood).

    Get over this obsession with the Pilgrims; they didn't wipe out anyone. There were only 102 of them to begin with -- man, woman and child. And about half of those died the first winter. Nor did the Pilgrim women, in spite of the fairy tales you were apparently raised on, spread smallpox among the local Indians in revenge for their menfolk getting a little on the side.

    Saying we only 'poorly understand' the mathematics and astronomy of the Native Americans means just that: we aren't sure what they did and didn't know. But I guarantee they didn't know more than we do.

    Some of the stonework in South America was genuinely impressive. But they never developed the arch, and their finest public buildings and massive fortresses had thatched roofs. Nor did they know anything about wheels.
    The Incas (not the Aztecs) were very good at trepanning, apparently. You know why? Because that part of the world liked to use clubs in battle, so they had lots of broken skulls to practice on. That doesn't mean their overall medical knowledge and skills were superior to the rest of the world.

    I already explained that one: they no longer had the Aztecs cutting their hearts out while they were alive. Do you really believe that was preferable to Spanish rule? And face it: eventually, no matter how it happened, there would have come a time when the Americas and the rest of the world came in contact. And no matter how it happened, new diseases would have swept through the population -- just like the Black Plague swept through Europe a few hundred years earlier. So you might as well get over that one, and stop pretending it wouldn't have happened eventually.

    A hundred thousand Indians marching to war against their despotic rulers was a bit more than just 'rival clans'... The Indians in Mexico had a long tradition of warfare; it wasn't some brand-new concept the Spaniards brought with them. The Aztecs happened to be on top when the Spanish got there, but they were so bloody and repressive they were sitting on a simmering cauldron anyway. They would probably have been overthrown within a generation anyway, if the Spaniards hadn't gotten there first. The Spaniards just provided the spark.

    I suppose from your viewpoint you would rather have seen the slavery and military subjugation continue to be carried out by the locals, instead of by foreigners. But hey -- that's the way the cookie crumbles.

    You're stretching things pretty thin, Boston, and looking for something to get your back up about. When my family sat down to Thanksgiving dinner, we weren't celebrating the Conquest of Mexico -- any more than other Americans were. We were celebrating the harvest season, giving thanks for the blessings in our own lives, and enjoying good company and good food.

    So take the chip off your shoulder, and have some turkey. You can go back to ranting about the evil white man on Columbus Day, OK? Unless you have another rant scheduled for Christmas....
     
  3. masrapido
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    masrapido Junior forever

    Not quite correct either. Heart cutting was not Aztecs specific practice. It was common to just about every culture (not to every culture) that used to live here before the white plague.

    Incas, Toltecs, Mayas, Olmecs, and many other before them, practiced human sacrifice as a celebration of victory over their enemies. Heart cutting out of a live human was the ultimate offering to the gods.

    It just happens that Aztecs and Mayas wee stronger (and more numerous) than the rest. So when the white christian plague infested the continent, many smaller tribes seized the opportunity to kick the hell out of Aztecs for their brutality.

    They probably thought that, once the Aztecs are out of the way, the white visitors would fade away too. After all, there were only a few of these around...

    But their own superstition screwed them up in the end. The best example how religion is a bad, bad drug.

    By the way, there is a very strong movement among the natives in Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador of returning to their own religion and deserting christianity. It has been going on for over a decade and it is now slowly spreading into Argentina. I suspect it is only a matter of time when Mapuche in Chile will join the trend.

    If nothing else, at least they will get rid of that christian thing keeping them enslaved mentally...

    Many American cultures used to kill those who violated their children. In christianity you cannot do that (kill the deranged retards) because "god" said "do not kill".

    Funny how he missed to protect the children when chiseling his "commandments"...

    As for the arch, how is that an achievement in any way other than aesthetically? An arch is impractical and structurally weak element, so when the stones are the main material, it makes no sense wasting time making arches.

    By the way, Ireland is now down too. Portugal is the next. Three European countries are now bankrupt. After Portugal, Hungary, Spain and England are the next. Not to mention the swag of smaller newly "liberated" countries on the East.

    Don't you just love capitalism...? It managed to do what "communism" never could: make communism look good...

    :cool:
     
  4. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    I agree that the Aztecs weren't the only ones cutting out hearts. They were relative late-comers -- Shoshones who moved into the neighborhood -- and seem to have picked up the local way of doing things rather quickly and well....

    But I hope you're joking about arches being impractical and weak. Do you think the Romans used arches to build a Colosseum that held 50,000 spectators (and has stood for 2000 years) using arches because arches are pretty, instead of because they're structurally strong? Do you think they went to all the trouble of building aqueducts as a series of arches just for looks?

    True arches are a vast improvement over post and lintel construction or corbel arches. When the stones are the main material, it makes no sense wasting time trying to do anything else.
     
  5. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    I can't wait to wish everyone a Merry Christmas!:D
     
  6. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    You instigator, you....:mad:



    :p:p:p
     
  7. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Most people are relatively ignorant of history and would prefer to go blithely on believing all is peaches and cream however for those of us of native heritage some of these innocent looking holidays are no more than painful reminders of events long forgotten.

    cheers
    B
     
  9. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Jenny Wiley was my great great great..........aunt. Finally made her escape from the "noble" sav... native Americans after they murdered her children. I don't hold a grudge. Time for you to get over it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Wiley

    Jenny Wiley was born to Hezekiah Sellards and Jean Brevard (Jean Brevard is in dispute as some believe that Hezekiah may have married a Cherokee).

    That would mean that Jenny's sister, my great great great great..........grandmother may be a Cherokee. Race should not be a measure of a man. Only character should.
     
  10. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Typically Native Americans took children captives and only killed the men, the women if they put up to much of a fight. It was more traditional for a warrior to show his respect by caring for the family of a deceased rival as it upheld the way of the shields. They were taken in as if they were his own and expected to work right along with the rest of the tribe in a commune like setting. If the goal was revenge then it was often a different story but for the most part raiding parties were intended to take captives

    could you tell us the story of your ancestor. I would be very interested to know what people she encountered. I have a lot of history books and a pretty good library of many raids and battles. I also have a collection of documented stories concerning while people "rescued" from the native tribes. The number of people actually held against there will by the Native Americans is relatively small so its entirely possible that records exist that you might not be aware of

    cheers
    and my apologies for your loss
    B

    ok
    just looked it up, it was a revenge killing, although one article I read suggests that her family was mistaken for the guilty party. Which is a slight misnomer or likely is, back in the day revenge killings often only meant that someone from your tribe or clan was killed for the actions of someone else, it didn't necessarily mean that the victim was actually the guilty party. The family could have simply been the first white people that the Indians came across.

    once again my apologies
     
  11. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    You owe me no apology. You can sympathise or empathise but an apology is un-called for.
     
  12. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    ah the culture clash
    my bad, my folks taught me to apologize for any ill actions of my family
    in my culture it is appropriate to apologize for the actions of ones ancestors. The Delaware/Lenape are closely related to the Cayuga who are my ancestors, that many generations ago and I am likely related with them as our tribes were neighbors.

    you have my sympathies then

    B
     
  13. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Let me put this bluntly: I believe I know more history than you do. Simply having Indian blood doesn't automatically make you an expert, nor does just picking up snippets here and snippets there. I at least know the difference between Piligrims and Conquistadores, Massachusetts and Mexico City, etc. And no, I'm not pushing any Pollyanna-ish, sanitized version of the clash between Native Americans and Europeans.

    But neither am I buying your simpleminded, one-sided, emotional diatribe. I don't have time to give you an in-depth answer this morning; I have end-of-shift duties. But I'll get around to you tonight....
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    best of luck with that friend, I spent many years at university and one of my favorite subjects was history. I have many first source references particular concerning the Native American Holocaust. I also am still pretty close with several of my old history professors and one of my best friends is working on his doctorate. So have at it, I always enjoy a good history discussion.

    Cant wait to see what you come up with
    B

    PS
    the incidences of natives being sold "poison" blankets is almost universally accepted and there is at least one fully documented case although it was later than the time period we are discussing at the moment. Documentation in the time frame we are discussing is most unusual and so almost all evidences of this time must be derived from various methods of study. Such is the nature of early American history as records of the less savory events were seldom without bias and the Natives were not so much into keeping a written history.

    feel free to dig all you want and yes I do tend to lump the Europeans together.
     

  15. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Sympathies accepted. If Jenny was part Cherokee, as has been postulated, then it would have been an internecine act of violence, even if her abductors were unaware of her mixed-blood.
     
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