What Do We Think About Climate Change

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Pericles, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. Knut Sand
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    Knut Sand Senior Member

    American city? Do you mean in comparison to the city/ houses or to the people who used to actually live there? I thought all the houses were put out for sale over there?
    Personal bankrupcy filed in the US is approx 6000/ day...??
    Citizens in jail??
    Killings by guns??

    You gotta admit that there's some room for improvement....:p
     
  2. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    Oh, to sit on a pool of oil, live under the nuclear blanket provided by the US, have a populous not complicated by diversity and roam the seas raping fisheries! What a life! I'll give you this, your little berg is situated to come out of this mess well...
     
  3. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

  4. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    This is actually a rather poorly understood problem, and people on both sides of the issue seem to misunderstand it equally. Of course the 'abundant earth' folks tend to disregard the issues involved with exponential growth and assume that technology will always keep up by ever reducing the individual 'footprint', as it has always done in the past.

    Meanwhile, the 'zero growth' folks see all the 'excess' of the industrialized world, and wonder (understandably) where all the goods will come from when the underdeveloped world, with its exponentially growing population, decides it needs the same 'excesses'. So the 'zero growth' people have a secret agenda to keep the underdeveloped world just that-underdeveloped and dirt poor- so that they will never be able to afford all the 'excesses'.

    The fact is, that one of the side effects of increased wealth is reduced population growth. Every industrialized nation is at or near zero population growth right now. Even the US would be, except for immigration. Right now, nearly 100% of US population growth comes from people moving here, NOT from people already here making more babies.

    It's really just as Bjorn Lomborg says in his lectures: The best way we can help the world is to help the poorest people become richer. Then they will stop reproducing so rapidly and they will be able to afford to care about environmental issues. Meanwhile, we will get richer helping them get rich.

    Jimbo
     
  5. Zed
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    Zed Senior Member

    That is certainly not the way I look at it and I kinda resent you telling me what I think.

    In effect solving the problem that endlessly growing population creates involves more than curtailing population growth (by some means, or effect) If we are to live at or near the holding capacity of this planet logic dictates that whatever we do needs to be sustainable and renewable. The holding capacity of the planet will also be determined by things such as the level of lifestyle we attempt to sustain.

    I am not offering a solution, I don't know what it might be and I know I don't like the idea of overly controlling government, that has a proven track record of screwing up. I don't pretended to know what the carrying capacity of this planet is on a sustainable basis, I am sure someone will make a flawed model to reflect that as well. The Club of Rome say 2bill, Martenson says 10-12bill... what I do know however is that the growth curve that we are on drives us into what ever wall there is at speed, so if it is not considered and acted upon early then there is probably nothing to be done about control. Are we past that point... I dunno?
     
  6. Zed
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    Zed Senior Member

    Don't be an R sol...
     
  7. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    Zed,

    No mate, we cannot be past that point (yet) as we are basically all still alive....but we do seem to be causing non sustainable living limits.

    Fortunately nature will sort us out, 2012, with the planets all aligning, solar action will become radical, the earth will have devastating weather effects and many will be killed off, mother nature wins again.......
     
  8. Zed
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    Zed Senior Member

    Yeah we can.... there is a difference between burst capacity and sustainable capacity in all systems... think about it.

    You really need to look at this issue to understand the speed with which this can unfold. I doubt most people will spend the short time that takes, which is why I think we fight in the end.
     
  9. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    If you read my post again you will notice the distinct absence of a particular word. That word is a name; your name in fact: ZED.

    The reason that name is missing is because I was not referring to you personally. I certainly posses the requisite cojones to do so, if that was my desire. No one can tell you what you think, and who cares anyway?

    The agenda of the collective of people referred to as 'zero growth' people is the question. They definitely do want to make sure that the underdeveloped countries stay that way. Their reasoning is as I stated above. I'm glad that you do not agree with that 'collective', but then I never thought you did. You are an individual person, not a 'collective'.

    Jimbo
     
  10. Zed
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    Zed Senior Member

    I identified myself as being of that belief, you then refer to the group as sharing a particular belief, no name required. The generalistaion you made isn't accurate as far a I'm concerned, and in my experience to date its an unfair characterisation of the group, although I am sure you can find people who think that way--> lets just stay away from broad sweeping generalizations, they have a tendency to colour the discussion and paint people such as myself with colours that they don't wear!
     
  11. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    I've prompted you to speak you mind and identify your distinct set of beliefs, which is a good thing. My post brought to your attention, perhaps for the first time(?), one of the agendas of the 'zero growth' groups. I did not dream up that agenda; they have been at it for a long time.

    Under the guise of climate change, such groups are in the process of preventing the electrification of a huge swath of the poorest populations. The immediate effect of this will be that they stay poor.

    Jimbo
     
  12. Zed
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    Zed Senior Member

    That may well be, maybe it is better to refer to the groups in a more specific fashion, it sounds like a twisted logic to me... Anywhooo there is nothing twisted about the issue of population and the nature of exponential growth its quite easy to see that at some point if it remains unchecked it will be an issue. If checking that growth involves maturing 3rd world economies to the point that they don't expand then so be it, they are green fields, they have a great opportunity to adopt sustainable practices without legacy to deal with. Maybe in the end they will export technologies back to the 'old' world... who knows!

    As I have said before I suspect a lot goes on under "green banners" that has nothing to do with actually being 'green' ---> paedophiles hang out in church, thugs become police, its a twisted world what can I say! Just don't lump me in with that crowd.
     
  13. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    Tell me about it; at least you guys are on an island without any serious threat of illegal immigration from underdeveloped countries. There are sections of every US city now where English is decidedly the second language. I'm no xenophobe, but exponential growth is a very real issue. And it does us little good to control out own fecundity only to receive the liabilities of uncontrolled growth from neighboring poor countries through uncontrollable illegal immigration. The best way we can help those people is to help them to prosper in their own country; it's just a simple fact.



    Jimbo
     
  14. Tcubed
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Glad to see this thread getting a bit more dynamic lately.

    Question, given the polarization apparent;

    On the one hand (humans are contributing 'significantly' to global warming) we have people swearing they are right and that the other side is believing lies perpetrated by front groups funded by big oil to promote wanton "use till it runs out.."

    On the other hand (humans have nothing to do with climate change, or the earth is actually cooling or ..I'm not entirely sure what they're trying to say) we have people swearing the are right and that the other side is believing lies perpetrated in order to push through carbon taxes.

    This is my question , spare me no detail ; What exactly is their carbon taxation plan ?

    How would it be implemented? How might it affect us? What exactly would be taxed? Etc. Details please.
     

  15. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Here you have what Jim Hansen thinks about carbon taxation (and more).....:eek:

    Cheers.
     
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