What Do We Think About Climate Change

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Pericles, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    Knut,

    If you don't yet understand the 'missing carbon' issue, then please read up on it as it is a very real dilemma for the IPCC and the AGW hypothesis. They fully acknowledge the issue, and are actively working on finding the 'mystery sinks' that are hiding all the CO2 which should be there IFF their hypothesis of AGW via CO2 is correct. I'm not making up the 'missing carbon' problem.

    I think you are finally getting the picture about recent CO2 rise, though. Yes, the ocean is responsible for it. We have only added a paltry, insignificant amount which natural flxes will quite easily cope with.


    Another thought provoking question for you:

    If carbon is increasing in the atmosphere, and if we put this 'extra' carbon into the atmosphere, and it came from fossil fuels, and fossil fuels have a remarkably different isotopic fingerprint.........

    Then why does the CO2 in the atmosphere RIGHT NOW look almost EXACTLY (>96%) like 'natural' (non-fossil) carbon?????

    Jimbo
     
  2. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    Knut,

    The blurb from CDIAC about long-lived CO2 is taken straight from the IPCC, which the brilliant Norwegian scientist Tom Segalstad, and I reject. I urge you to read his presentation which I linked above.

    As I stated MANY TIMES on this thread, not one single shred of evidence is offered in support of these claims, except for computer modeling. No paper exists which supports these claims. If you think you can quite easily find a study which MEASURED the CO2 dwell time and concluded that it is anything like 70-200 years, please post a link to that paper.

    Jimbo
     
  3. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    You're so lost:D

    Jimbo
     
  4. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Artic sea ice extent, April 30 2009.

    Cheers.
     

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  5. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Some facts for the thinking:

    1.- Temperatures from just 2002 has already wiped out half the warming our planet experienced last century. (Check data from Britain's Hadley Centre, NASA's Aqua satellite and the US National Climatic Data Centre.)

    2.- The British Antarctic Survey, working with NASA, last week confirmed ice around Antarctica has grown 100,000 sq km each decade for the past 30 years.

    3.- Satellite data from NASA's Marshall Space Flight Centre this week shows the Arctic hasn't had this much April ice for at least seven years. Norway's Nansen Environmental and Remote Sensing Centre says the ice is now within the standard deviation range for 1979 to 2007.

    4.- Australian droughts are not caused by "global warming", whether man-made or not. As the University of Australia's NSW Climate Change Research Centre says: "The causes of southeastern Australia's longest, most severe and damaging droughts have been discovered, with the surprise finding that they originate far away in the Indian Ocean. A team of Australian scientists has detailed for the first time how a phenomenon known as the Indian Ocean Dipole - a variable and irregular cycle of warming and cooling of ocean water - dictates whether moisture-bearing winds are carried across the southern half of Australia.

    5.- Not one of the world's seven continents has set a record high temperature since 1974. Europe's high remains the 50 degrees measured in Spain 128 years ago, before the invention of the first true car.

    6.- If anything, the seas are getting colder. For five years, a network of 3175 automated bathythermographs has been deployed in the oceans by the Argo program, a collaboration between 50 agencies from 26 countries. Warming believer Josh Willis, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, reluctantly concluded: "There has been a very slight cooling . . ."

    7.- For almost three years, the seas have stopped rising, according to the Jason-1 satellite mission monitored by the University of Colorado. That said, the seas have risen steadily and slowly for the past 10,000 years through natural warming, and will almost certainly resume soon. Professor Nils-Axel Moerner, one of the world's most famous experts on sea levels, has studied the Maldives in particular and concluded there has been no net rise there for 1250 years. Venice is still above water.

    8.- Ryan Maue of Florida State University recently measured the frequency, intensity and duration of all hurricanes and cyclones to compile an Accumulated Cyclone Energy Index. His findings? The energy index is at its lowest level for more than 30 years.

    9.- This month fellow Queensland University researchers admitted in a study that Great Barrier reef coral had once more made a "spectacular recovery", with "abundant corals re-established in a single year". The reef is blooming.

    10.- Polar bears numbers have in fact increased.

    11.- Indur Goklany, who represented the US at the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: "There is no signal in the mortality data to indicate increases in the overall frequencies or severities of extreme weather events, despite large increases in the population at risk."

    Would you like to add more, Jim?

    Cheers.
     
  6. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    First, thanks for the kind salutations, chaps. I have been somewhat engrossed recently in helping to bring down the big lie perpetrated by Gore, Hansen, Mann et al and in view of the fact that scientific fraud has been exposed at the University of Albany, I'd say that in 700 days or so, AGWarmists like poor old Knut will rue the day they were seduced like silly virgins into believing self serving politicians and money grubbing and dishonest pseudo scientists.
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/05/03/climate-science-fraud-at-albany-university/

    Knut's a nice enough fellow, but he is so gullible that he still seems to support fatty Gore, who is laughing all the way to the bank.
    http://www.climatedepot.com/a/593/V...s-path-to-become-the-first-Carbon-Billionaire

    All around we see backtracking and poor attempts by the MSM to correct their shockingly biased reporting.
    http://www.climatedepot.com/a/592/N...nt-Page-Global-Warming-Article-Touted-By-Gore
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/05/...against-all-of-these-journalistic-principles/

    That aside, the sun is still spotless.
    http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/realtime/mdi_igr/512/

    Polar icecaps at both north and south
    have NEVER been legitimate causes for concern.
    http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/AMSRE_Sea_Ice_Extent.png
    http://icecap.us/images/uploads/AARI_PREDICTS_ARCTIC_COOLING.pdf

    BOBAMA was stupidly ignorant to say at a town hall meeting in Missouri on Wednesday, that cataclysmic hurricanes are brought on by global warming, a claim which has been proven incorrect. Still, what do you expect? He's never my choice.
    http://www.lulu.com/content/4576443

    "Chris Landsea, a meteorologist with NOAA's National Hurricane Center (NHC) in Miami has said the claims are unproven. Landsea points to the fact that current analysis is much improved through technology such as satellites and as such comparisons to historical records on hurricane strength are not really possible.

    Most importantly, it has been proven beyond a doubt that these claims are entirely false. Just last month researchers at Florida State University completed a comprehensive analysis showing that global hurricane activity is actually at a 30 year low. Researchers said that, “Tropical cyclone (TC) activity worldwide has completely and utterly collapsed during the past 2 to 3 years.” This stands in stark contrast to the president’s and former vice president’s claims that increase global temperatures and sea surface temperatures would increase hurricane activity."
    http://www.examiner.com/x-219-Denve...c-hurricanes-despite-evidence-to-the-contrary

    The oceans will NOT become battery acid.
    http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/20...e-oceans-acidic-a-note-from-professor-plimer/

    I conclude with a link to CA. This is a site for serious maths buffs. I skip over the heavy numbers and dive to the summaries because there aren't enough hours in the day, however I trust Steve & Ross, not to be naughty with their numbers, unlike Wang, Mann, Jones. http://www.climateaudit.org/

    Remember, lads, we have time on our side. The earth cools and warms in its own time. We humans are insignificant in geological terms, but my contribution to warming us up would be one of these. We drove 200 miles there and back to have some fun. http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/Video.aspx?f=videos ENJOY.

    PS These maps are terrific. http://www.scotese.com/ especially seeing where the continents will be when humans are extinct. http://www.scotese.com/future.htm
     

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  7. Knut Sand
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    Knut Sand Senior Member

    Hi there....
    First I do not have the knowledge or time to go into all the issues stated earlier. Al Gore is probably laughing all the way to the bank... thats something I can believe in...;)

    As consumers, its my full belief that we're getting scre**d from both sides....:rolleyes:

    Arctic ice:
    We have here in Norway a fellow Ousland, he's taking tourists around on the ice up there, or were doing it. He was on the telly saying that the ice were considerably thinner than earlier, also an increase in one year old ice, and a reduction of old (more yars old) ice. He hand an estimate if I recall correctly of approx 25% based on his experience on this ice, since 1995 or something. He also pointed towards some Russian studies that showed something very similar.
    Also: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic_thinice.html

    Polar bears:
    Norway is, I believe, strangely enough, the only country that have a ban against hunting polar bears. That may explain some of the increase of polar bear population :D Other areas of concern in this matter is build up of environmental poison in the liver of the polar bears, followed by a reduced fertility.

    Acid ocean:
    "Injection of carbon dioxide allows to master the pH of liquid effluents. CO2 is an excellent alternative to sulfuric acid for pH balance control."
    ( cut from here: http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/encyclopedia.asp?GasID=26 ).
    Then, if we use Henry's law, an increase in the content of a specific gas above a liquid, same pressure and temperature, it will cause a rise in the content of the same gas in the liquid...
    And we'll get this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071017102133.htm
    and; http://www.scientificamerican.com/b...ocean-turning-to-acid-at-lightning-2008-11-24
    What do you think? At least some poeple around here are worried...

    And about us burning oil.....
    We're burning 85 220 000 Barrels a day, crude oil (CIA, factbook 2007).

    One barrel of crude oil, used, give us approx 317 kg CO2, 1m3 of CO2 have a mass of 1,977 kg.

    Earth diameter is: 12 700 000 m (or close)

    Earth surface area is: 5,067 e14 m2 (pi x d2)

    Sooo....:
    If we take
    ((85220000 x 365 x 317 )/ 1,977)/5,067e14 = 0,0099 m

    That's close to a layer of 1 cm extra CO2 each year.

    1 cm extra of CO2... not much? But it has approximately only half the thermal conductivituy to that of air, and close to 1/10 to that of glass again... So....imagine a 9-10 cm glass roof added each year....
    (Ok the sea will take up much, but for how long? We will also have mechanical/ direct heat transfer in a gas mixture, but, as mentioned earlier; it's a safe bet that the total heat conductivity of that gas will be altered (reduced)).

    But then again, hey, it doesn't matter what we do, as it's only a mere 2-3% of the annual normal release of CO2....

    Oh 1:
    Ooops ; I forgot that the CO2 will probably linger around for a (uncertain) number of years.

    Oh 2:
    Ooops; I forgot that we also use some coal during a year....:rolleyes:

    Sorry you have still not convinced me, would have liked to see Al Gore economically reduced to something that leaves a more average carbon print on this earth.... But he's probably closer to the truth than some other post politicians...

    About me finding a true belief and a true green God;
    There is only one God, and her name is HP15C, and only those pure at heart will know her name.
     
  8. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    All of your 'points' have been painstakingly debunked, Knut. It's just that you refuse to believe in the proofs.

    Tom Segalstad proves quite exhaustively that the pH buffering capacity of the oceans is almost infinite, yet you do not believe him.

    He also proves exhaustively that the 'extra' CO2 is definitely naturally sourced, making moot your entire rant about the 'shocking quantity' of our emissions. Yet you prefer to believe that humans are the cause of CO2 increases.

    We know factually that arctic ice virtually disappeared in the 1930's and detailed measurements of the ice caps have only a 30 year history in any case. Yet you prefer to believe that arctic ice in somehow in peril.

    I've lost hope that you can be persuaded by logic and reason, meaning that your belief in the possibility of a CO2 induced greenhouse disaster is really based on FAITH rather than on the examination of objective facts. The 'science-ish' discussions that you engage in (as above) are simply your way of placating your logical side; being that you are a man of technical training, I would expect nothing less.

    Prove me wrong: Tell me ONE THING, that if it were brought to your attention as true, would cause you to no longer believe in the AGW scenario. If there is nothing, then you believe on faith. It's that simple.

    Jimbo
     
  9. Knut Sand
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    Knut Sand Senior Member

    Proofs and proofs.... I still see no clear evidence that you have proven that we can continue to add our share of CO2 without expecting some sort of reactions... An infinite input to a finite space....?

    Tom Segalstad is making some waves out there, but if you bother to google "ocean acidification" and look only for the sites ending *.org, well there are actually quite a lot of persons out there that tend to take this issue more seriously, here's a couple:
    http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.or...n-acidification-chemistry-and-considerations/ and;
    http://www.aims.gov.au/docs/media/news2009/20090102.htmland;
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ocean-acidification-hits-great-barrier-reef
    As this issue, if it is correct, is rather unpleasant, you don't think they have seriously looked into the possibility that Tom Segalstad may be right? As that thruth would be much more convenient? And found that road a bit undocumented/ unsafe?

    Ok, so "he proves that the "extra" CO2 is definitely naturally sourced".
    Ehhmm well...... I do not quite see the light.... (Unless we agree that burning up fossile fuel is a natural source of CO2 (And in fact, there is no unnatural in fossil fuels)). An increase in pH of the sea (by only 0,1, but its a logaritmic scale so its actually some change, if you don't belive that; pls read the two links supplied above here). So, according to Tom Segalstad, there's a natural source for CO2, and since you seem to have the opinion that the minor fart of CO2 we supply in addition, is so small that it is completely safe to neglect it; Why have we had an increase in CO2 (which causes the acidification, or at least parts of it) in the ocean? and the air? (ahh by the way, there's this fellow Henry again...) So where's the other main natural source for CO2?? I mean; we're talking some quantities here....?

    Numbers......;)
     
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  10. newbiejon24
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    newbiejon24 Junior Member

    humans survived the last ice age why couldnt we do it with all of our technology?
     
  11. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    But Knut,

    It's YOU SIDE of the argument where we find that the number DO NOT WORK!!!!!!

    Using the orthodox AGW explanations, they cannot account for HALF of the CO2 in the atmosphere today!!!!!!!!


    That a pretty big F'n error!!

    But Segalstad shows EXACTLY how and why they have it wrong and why their numbers do not work.

    And HIS explanation DOES WORK and correctly accounts for the CO2 we measure today in the atmosphere.

    So once again, your point has already been THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED, and yet you still believe.

    Jimbo
     
  12. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    thats an easy one New Man
    think of it this way

    this is a graph of the deviation in the carbon content of the atmosphere evident over the last few years

    [​IMG]

    and this graph shows that carbon deviation overlaid with the deviation in temp
    (remember there is a permeability issue that delays the co2 data from showing up in ice cores, thus the illusion of temp preceding co2)

    [​IMG]

    in the first graph notice that the co2 content of the atmosphere has never been even close to as high at it is in the last few years since the advent of fossil fuels

    in the second graph notice that temp should be dropping as should co2 content
    but its not
    instead its lingering at the top of the graph unlike in the past when it dropped off dramatically at the end of each co2 cycle

    and notice that the typical co2 cycle did not end but instead rose dramatically with the advent of the industrial age

    to clarify what temp has done look at this graph of recent data

    [​IMG]

    this leads to the inevitable conclusion that mimics the consensus view held by climate scientists
    (a miraculous 97% agree on this issue)

    the dramatic deviation from the cyclical alterations in environmental norms can not be explained by means other than mans consumption of fossil fuels

    the one most important outside influence of our climate is easily measured and had not altered from its norm
    the sun
    the sun spot cycle has been studied to death and it has been predicted to 98% accuracy
    it is cyclical and steady holding to its historic norms
    with less than 0.1% deviation within the cycle

    therefore it is nearly impossible to conclude that natural variability is responsible for the extraordinary deviations observed in the climates co2 or temp response

    the fear within the scientific community is that like a fault line builds up pressure before a earthquake
    our climate could be building pressure to conclude the drop in temp it should have accomplished (according to the data of the last 600,000 years) but didnt
    because of mans interaction with the atmospheric chemistry

    if the natural cycle eventually imposes its influences on our altered climate
    it is possible it do so in a manner far more dramatic than evident in recent past events

    although less recent events prove without a shadow of a doubt that rapid, dramatic and devastating alterations in climactic conditions are not only possible but probable
    given our present deviation from the norm
    we are in completely uncharted waters

     
  13. Tcubed
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Corto Maltese,
    Folk er veldig bra av skiftende deres olje narkomanen livsstilen og er derfor troende oljen industrier agitation. Meg far er Per Tangvald , du kunne ha hørt av seg. JEG ha bli kjedet denne tråden fordi en og annen er ikke her over å høre bortsett fra rettferdig å belærende deres onde oppfattet overbevisningene.

    Je pense que tu comprends.....
     
  14. Jimbo1490
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    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    False statement, already addressed. CO2 was at 425-450ppm circa 1825, more than a century before 'significant' anthropogenic release began. Even Callendar (from whom we get the famous '280 ppm pre-industrial baseline) showed this in the data in his original study. When he RE-presented that same data to the first IPCC, he simply omitted this little detail, and Voila!: 280 ppm pre-industrial baseline became a 'known fact'

    And if all the 'extra' CO2 in the atmosphere now is from the burning of fossil fuels, why does it consistently 'fingerprint' as almost entirely natural, terrestrial biotically sourced rather than ancient fossil sourced? The prediction was that it would fingerprint mostly fossil sourced. And why isn't it at ~750 ppm, which the IPCC predicts it should be, if the sum of their hypothetical positions (on dwell time, sourcing, fluxing, etc) is correct? Where is the other ~350ppm? Mystery sink, anyone?

    Again, it's more reasonable to believe the hypothesis that best describes the observed world, rather than the one where the promoters try to bend the facts to fit their theory.

    Jimbo
     

  15. Tcubed
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

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