What are the best Lithium Marine Batteries for house and engine batteries

[BertKu]

Bert - you must have missed it - here -> http://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-300Ah-1000Ah/WB-LYP1000AHC-LiFeYPO4-3-2V-1000Ah.html

1000ampere.hour cells cost $1499. Most cost effective size is the 700aH which is works out to around $1.24 per cell, per ampere.hour.

This site, has the same 1000ampere cells for $1100 - http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-LFP1000AHC

All of the smaller sizes, 100ah and above, are between $1.10 - $1.50 per cell, per ah. Three main brands are Winston, Sinopoly and CALB.

Not sure of any safety built in, im quite sure they are just raw single cells, no bells and whistles...

Yes you are right, I overlooked that one. The way I bought my cells 4 years ago was for $1.20 per Ah, thus the price has not really come down that much. I had a quote for 25 Kwh (3.3Volt) and that was at that time $ 10540.00. If I multiply 1000Ah x 3.3 Volt x 8 pieces, that will work out to $ 11992.00 . I have to wait for a new process which extract Lithium from liquid substance to get a more favorable costing.

My manufacturer specifications state " A nail is allowed to be punched into the battery and the battery is not allowed to explode" I wonder how those massive single cell will perform when a nail is hammered through the casing.

Lets hope we have given John enough information to consider his move to use Lithium on board of his yacht.
Bert.

 

[groper]

If you want a quote for a large battery the price will come down as they discounts for large orders. However these prices are in Australia which one of the most expensive places to buy anything these days. Better prices could be had from the USA or Europe. There are some vendors selling from asia also.

These large prismatic cells have a metal casing so they're difficult to puncture. I didn't think the lifepo4 cells were prone to explosion anyway, seems more of lithium polymer chemistry problem.

 

[oceancruiser]

I have selected LiFoFo4 , 4 x 3.3 Volt in serial x 10 parallel. For good Telecom Lithium batteries refer www.eemb.com or sales10@ewtbattery.com

Please elaborate on the manufacturers claim. What do they claim.

A forum member mentioned that after 7 years the lithium batteries may dry internally. So far after 4 years, I have not noticed any problems other than that 2 of the 40 batteries had some corrosion on the terminals. The leakage current is very low. Balancing and quick charging are problems. (for me), although after a suggestion from another forum member, charging is done with 10 batteries parallel.

What do you have in mind 1 Kwh, 10 Kwh?
Bert

Manufacturers claim.

3 times less weight. 3 Times longer life and three times more
recharable cycles as comparrison to marine conventional batteries.

So for a multihull that would be attractive would it not.

However reading some of the posts and not knowing anything but the mamufactures claims as state above, that got my interest it would appear a lot more complicated and imagine they take a lot more space.

Not interested in a petrol getset on board but a 12 kw approx Diesel Genset direct power to all elecrical appliances like 6 plate element cooker, thermo wave fan oven, electric kettle, microwaves, salamander, refrgerator, freezer, water maker and galley 240 v power points. No inverter. The rest would be 12v 0R 24 volt battery power to run lights, navigation stations electrical equipement, auto pilot, radar, electric vacum fluss toilets, electric winches, laptops computers, air conditioning both genset and shore power at marinas wharfs facilities.

OC

 

[BertKu]

Manufacturers claim.

3 times less weight. 3 Times longer life and three times more
recharable cycles as comparrison to marine conventional batteries.

So for a multihull that would be attractive would it not.


OC

Well Johan, 3 times more rechargeable is basically true. One could get 1500 to 2000 cycles out of lithium.

3 times longer life, that is an easy statement, as nobody has been able to test Lithium batteries in real practical use for 12 to 15 years. I spoke accidental today to my neighbor, who has a Volvo, 100.000km on the clock still with the original battery of 8 years old. 8 x 3 = 24 years and that I do not believe that Lithium can archive.

3 x less weight, that is an easy one. Compare 12 Volt 60Ah Lithium battery, shipping weight 15.47 Kg lets take 5 kg off for packaging , that makes it 31,5 kg for a 60 Ah lead acid battery, While a deep charging AGM sealed Lead acid battery weighs only 20,5 Kg. Yes, lithium weighs less, but not 3 x
Bert

 

[groper]

Well you need to compare the usable capacity when comparing weight. Because lithium can be cycled to 80% DOD whereas lead acid only 50% DOD. This means if you size a house bank for let's say 800amphours then you would need to install a 1000ah lithium bank. The same in lead acid you would need to install 1600ah to get the same 800ah usable. So when you compare the weight of each in this case then indeed the lithium is about 3 times lighter..

 

[oceancruiser]

Well you need to compare the usable capacity when comparing weight. Because lithium can be cycled to 80% DOD whereas lead acid only 50% DOD. This means if you size a house bank for let's say 800amphours then you would need to install a 1000ah lithium bank. The same in lead acid you would need to install 1600ah to get the same 800ah usable. So when you compare the weight of each in this case then indeed the lithium is about 3 times lighter..

Thanks.

Well copied this from another website.

" Lithium Ion batteriesLithium Ion batteries have a high energy density and are perfect for cyclic applications. They offer savings of up to 70% in volume and weight compared to traditional lead-acid batteries, with three times as many charging cycles (2000 full cycles).

Another major benefit of the Mastervolt Li-ion battery is that it is equipped with a Battery Management System (BMS), which automatically compensates for any imbalance between the cells. This guarantees you a constant high capacity and longer battery lifespan. The Lithium Ion Ultra series includes integrated battery monitoring.


Having perfected the legendary Lithium Ion battery in a few key areas, Mastervolt has developed an unrivalled 2500 or 5000 Wh powerhouse. The MLI Ultra has an ultra-long lifespan that offers over 2000 cycles; a recharge time of less than an hour; active cell balancing for efficient and safe use of the Li-ion cells; and integrated battery monitoring to further simplify your system. What’s more, the Ultra communicates directly with your Mastervolt battery charger via MasterBus to ensure the best possible recharging.

Add in the fact that it takes up 70% less space and weight compared to lead acid batteries, and you’ll see why this battery is the best choice.

•Highly advanced technology.
•Multifunctional battery of 2.5 kWh or 5 kWh.
•Saves up to 70% in space and weight.
•Three times the lifespan of traditional batteries (2000 cycles).
•Ultra-fast charging and discharging.
•High efficiency.
•MasterBus communication with every Mastervolt battery charger.
•Integrated Battery Management System (BMS).
•Common-rail technology optimizes series connection.
•Safest Lithium Ion technology available.
•Integrated battery monitoring.
•Two year warranty "

The space saving is interesting.


Why only a 2 year warranty period if they are so reliable and ever lasting.


After 2 years and claims failed to meet expectations they claim you must have abused it. Pretty costly experience would it be not.

 

[BertKu]

Well you need to compare the usable capacity when comparing weight. Because lithium can be cycled to 80% DOD whereas lead acid only 50% DOD. This means if you size a house bank for let's say 800amphours then you would need to install a 1000ah lithium bank. The same in lead acid you would need to install 1600ah to get the same 800ah usable. So when you compare the weight of each in this case then indeed the lithium is about 3 times lighter..

I compare it with a sealed deep charging 60 Ampere AMG battery and not with a normal liquid Lead Acid battery. Bert

 

[BertKu]

Thanks.

Well copied this from another website.

" Lithium Ion batteriesLithium Ion batteries have a high energy density and are perfect for cyclic applications. They offer savings of up to 70% in volume and weight compared to traditional lead-acid batteries, with three times as many charging cycles (2000 full cycles).

Another major benefit of the Mastervolt Li-ion battery is that it is equipped with a Battery Management System (BMS), which automatically compensates for any imbalance between the cells. This guarantees you a constant high capacity and longer battery lifespan. The Lithium Ion Ultra series includes integrated battery monitoring.


Having perfected the legendary Lithium Ion battery in a few key areas, Mastervolt has developed an unrivalled 2500 or 5000 Wh powerhouse. The MLI Ultra has an ultra-long lifespan that offers over 2000 cycles; a recharge time of less than an hour; active cell balancing for efficient and safe use of the Li-ion cells; and integrated battery monitoring to further simplify your system. What’s more, the Ultra communicates directly with your Mastervolt battery charger via MasterBus to ensure the best possible recharging.

Add in the fact that it takes up 70% less space and weight compared to lead acid batteries, and you’ll see why this battery is the best choice.

•Highly advanced technology.
•Multifunctional battery of 2.5 kWh or 5 kWh.
•Saves up to 70% in space and weight.
•Three times the lifespan of traditional batteries (2000 cycles).
•Ultra-fast charging and discharging.
•High efficiency.
•MasterBus communication with every Mastervolt battery charger.
•Integrated Battery Management System (BMS).
•Common-rail technology optimizes series connection.
•Safest Lithium Ion technology available.
•Integrated battery monitoring.
•Two year warranty "

The space saving is interesting.


Why only a 2 year warranty period if they are so reliable and ever lasting.


After 2 years and claims failed to meet expectations they claim you must have abused it. Pretty costly experience would it be not.

John, If you have the money, go for it. Get a good Lithium bank. Don't worry about the 2 year warranty. My experience is with companies who gave me 5 years on my ****500 The car was every week in the garage, in view that I drove up to 60.000 km in that time per year. Every second week I had a loan car. Today with my car from Korea, it gave me 150.000 km warranty, but I had and now again some serious problems. Apart from the normal service the car have been 7 times back for repairs. I rather have a product with 6 months or 1 year guarantee then to trust a company with 5 years warranty and after 3 years they don't exists anymore or the company is sold or I have a wrack after the warranty is expired.
However you have to get the best charger on the market for your size Lithium battery bank. Also study some of the Lithium parameters and understand the consequences.
You have everything going for, weight, space, cycles, up to 80% discharging all the time for hundreds of cycles or 2 - 2.5 Volt per cell.
Bert

P.s. I would try to avoid very fast charging, whatever the manufacturer says. Fast charging in a controlled test environment is different, then if you are in a harbour at 40 degrees Celsius or at minus 20. Or with 90% humidity etc. I don't believe that you can fast charge within 1 hour and till 80% empty Li battery for over the 2000 cycles. This is just my view and experience.

 

[BertKu]

These large prismatic cells have a metal casing so they're difficult to puncture. I didn't think the lifepo4 cells were prone to explosion anyway, seems more of lithium polymer chemistry problem.

Mine (LiFePO5) has also stainless steel casing, but the specs special mentioning punctures and no explosion, Why should they mentioned it otherwise. Bert

 

[BertKu]

John, you could wait until the sugar battery is manufactured * ( probably in 5 years from now)

"Sugar is a perfect energy storage compound in nature," says Virginia Tech's Prof. Y.H. Percival Zhang, who is leading the research. "So it's only logical that we try to harness this natural power in an environmentally friendly way to produce a battery."

Zhang's isn't the first experimental sugar battery, although he claims that its energy density is "an order of magnitude higher than others."

It's actually a type of enzymatic fuel cell. For fuel, it utilizes maltodextrin, which is a polysaccharide made from the hydrolysis of starch (polysaccharides are chains of sugars). The catalyst in its anode is made from inexpensive enzymes, as opposed to the costly platinum that's used in regular batteries.

When the maltodextrin is combined with air, water and electricity are produced. Unlike the case with a hydrogen fuel cell, however, the sugar battery is non-explosive and non-flammable.

Zhang envisions users refilling the batteries with sugar when they need refueling, "much like filling a printer cartridge with ink." He hopes that they may be powering electronic devices in as little as three years.

A paper on his research was published today in the journal Nature Communications.

Source: Virginia Tech/Gizmag
Bert

 

[oceancruiser]

John, you could wait until the sugar battery is manufactured * ( probably in 5 years from now)

"Sugar is a perfect energy storage compound in nature," says Virginia Tech's Prof. Y.H. Percival Zhang, who is leading the research. "So it's only logical that we try to harness this natural power in an environmentally friendly way to produce a battery."

Zhang's isn't the first experimental sugar battery, although he claims that its energy density is "an order of magnitude higher than others."

It's actually a type of enzymatic fuel cell. For fuel, it utilizes maltodextrin, which is a polysaccharide made from the hydrolysis of starch (polysaccharides are chains of sugars). The catalyst in its anode is made from inexpensive enzymes, as opposed to the costly platinum that's used in regular batteries.

When the maltodextrin is combined with air, water and electricity are produced. Unlike the case with a hydrogen fuel cell, however, the sugar battery is non-explosive and non-flammable.

Zhang envisions users refilling the batteries with sugar when they need refueling, "much like filling a printer cartridge with ink." He hopes that they may be powering electronic devices in as little as three years.

A paper on his research was published today in the journal Nature Communications.

Source: Virginia Tech/Gizmag
Bert

There is no talk about it being available for car or boat batteries, only torch batteries or smaller, Wachtes, cell phones etc.

Article

http://www.theguardian.com/technolo...wered-gadgets-three-years?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


Smile OC

 

[florin]

Another option

Hipower LiFePO4 cells are a very good option also. We have used them in multiple applications including a small hybrid electric day boat we're currently playing with and they're doing what they are supposed to (and better as the last official datasheets are more conservative than they used to be).

 

[Westfield 11]

John, all Honda and Yamaha portable generators make and have outputs for 12v, they also turn that 12v into 120v. I am working on plans for an outboard cruiser that has a pair mounted in cabinets in the cockpit with access doors that open in the transom to the swim step. All the noise and exhaust goes overboard since it is never in the boat. The Hondas and Yamahas can be paired to double their output and the larger ones are remote start with fuel pumps for direct connection the boats tanks. The larger of my own gensets is 2.4kw and weighs 60lbs. Not to be confused with the cheap contractor generators available at Home Depot or Lowes, those are like an old-fashioned marine genset in that they run at high rpm all the time. At light loads like you describe, either of my gensets just purrs and is barely audible if in a sound shield.

I am not an electrical engineer but I understand that lithium batteries allow high charging currents as well as high discharge currents. I think that is a significant advantage for sailing boats for the following reason:

To get a reasonable working life from a lead acid battery you should not discharge it to below 50% capacity then to recharge it you first have to apply a bulk charge, which can be at a reasonably high current, followed by a long duration absorption charge at a lower current. If your boat is staying in a marina overnight then this can be done using shore power and a modern 'smart' battery charger. However, if you are cruising under sail and relying on your main engine for charging while at anchor or in a harbour without shore power, then battery charging requires the engine to run in neutral at low load for long periods, not good for the engine, or for efficient use of fuel or for peace and quiet. Even if you have a small petrol or diesel generator for charging this will still run at low load during the lengthy absorption charge period since the full output of even a small generator will be too high for absorption charging a typical yacht battery bank. If you omit the absorption charge the effective capacity battery is not even 50% of the nominal capacity, more like 30 to 40%.

On the other hand, a small generator will rapidly charge a lithium battery, saving the main engine and requiring perhaps only half an hour of charging each day and, say, £1 worth of fuel each day, although, as they say, your mileage may vary (quite a bit probably). Most small generators currently available are not ideal for this since they provide their main output at 240/120V and you would need to put this through a high power battery charger to charge a lithium battery at the current that it is capable of accepting. This is possible, but the monster battery charger would be extra equipment to buy and maintain, extra space and weight and would incur some energy loss. I would think that if lithium batteries become more widely used there will be an obvious need for small generators that give a 12V/24V output at an amperage that takes full advantage of the high charge rate possible. For a typical small sailing yacht think of something like a 2hp 4 stroke petrol engine coupled to an alternator that can absorb the full power of the engine and ideally fitted with much better sound attenuation than is usual for small petrol engines. There is already one such battery charger available, a friend of mine has one and does find it rather noisy - there is no more sound attenuation than the simple exhaust muffler you would find on a cheap lawnmower.

It seems that lithium batteries are already close to being price competitive with lead acid if you allow for the longer life and the usable capacity being much closer to the nominal capacity than is the case with lead acid. Maybe they will become a bit cheaper in the future, but perhaps not all that much cheaper since lithium is an expensive substance that is likely to become in short supply. I read somewhere that if the world fleet of cars was all replaced with electric cars with lithium batteries then that would consume 60% of the known on-shore lithium reserves in just the first generation of cars - so not really a long term solution. I understand that it may be possible to recover lithium from the sea, but probably at high cost.

 

[florin]

On the other hand, a small generator will rapidly charge a lithium battery, saving the main engine and requiring perhaps only half an hour of charging each day and, say, £1 worth of fuel each day, although, as they say, your mileage may vary (quite a bit probably). Most small generators currently available are not ideal for this since they provide their main output at 240/120V and you would need to put this through a high power battery charger to charge a lithium battery at the current that it is capable of accepting. This is possible, but the monster battery charger would be extra equipment to buy and maintain, extra space and weight and would incur some energy loss. I would think that if lithium batteries become more widely used there will be an obvious need for small generators that give a 12V/24V output at an amperage that takes full advantage of the high charge rate possible.

We think you're right and have built one such generator on a Honda GX690 motor (except 48V), see http://newpowr.co.nz/news/view/53/e-classic-hybrid-blectric-boat for a general idea if curious.

 

[BertKu]

There is no talk about it being available for car or boat batteries, only torch batteries or smaller, Wachtes, cell phones etc.

Article

http://www.theguardian.com/technolo...wered-gadgets-three-years?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


Smile OC

Hi John,
I was just joking. However Lithium also started first as a watch, clocks, small appliances battery. Thus we never know what in the future, sugar batteries will bring us.
Bert