Wharram Tiki wrecked in Thailand

Moderator Note: I have changed the subtitle of the above message to make it less adversarial (I believe) and I have also removed the name of the designer in question; it is possible I am over-moderating this thread, but my intent is to protect a designer whose work I do respect (other work I should say as I have not seen any drawings they did in regards to any boats discussed in this thread).

On a personal note, I am alarmed by the whole situation and troubled by the problems reported between builder and customer; the warning at http://wharram.eu//live//article.php?story=20090828125835689 from Wharram speaks for itself.

 

Moderator note.

Hi Jeff,

The situation is much worse than what has been indicated on this thread and on others.

I was in Thailand when things 'blew up' with Creed. I saw the invoice for the final amount which was demanded prior to launch even though it was not due until after sea trials. Not only that, there were many other unjustified charges and no adjustments for the items which were part of the contract and were paid for but never supplied. Just one of those items was 24 Lewmar portlights, most of them opening with insect screens. Instead a hole was cut and perspex was put in with Sikaflex with only a 3 - 4mm overlap and no mechanical fastening. Any twisting or a good wave impact could potentially push them in and flood the interior.

That was just one of many items that was included in the contract and which was not supplied and for which there was no offset.

But, even more serious than that was a number of structural deficiencies that Creed became aware of and pointed out to *****. ***** responded by preparing a disclaimer and insisted Creed sign it which would essentially negate the warranty. When he refused to sign it then that was things came apart in their relationship.

So Creed never got to test the boat, was not notified of the launch and he never accepted delivery as it was not completed as per the terms of the contract.

Creed had only been back in Thailand for a shortwhile as he had been seriously ill. He had been relying on photos and to assess the quality of the work. I had already told him that the finishing was very substandard but the photos were taken in such a way that the finish looked good. All the mitre joints were at odd angles with gaps, much of the work was out of square, jobs were done in the wrong sequence and had to be redone and what had been done was messed up. At the time of launching the interior was like a poorly put together second hand boat. Looked OK from a distance.

I had a look at it on the marina a few days after it was launched and noticed the synthetic ropes linking the wire ropes to the mast (sorry about not knowing the correct yachting term) were already starting to unravel. I wondered at that time how long it would be before they totally came undone and the mast fell over.

Anyway, as I said I was there at the time and was able to observe all this first hand. My boat was still under construction. As I have mentioned in earlier posts I had already paid ***** US$75,000 for about $25,000 worth of work.

Creed is a pretty easy going guy, but I am not so easy going when I am crossed so I thought that if Creed is having a problem now, I will have a bigger one when it comes time to launch my boat...so I told ***** I was going to pull my hulls out and ship back to NZ for completion.

I explained to him that I was expecting quality workmanship...ie Italian quality as was showed to me in photos when I first went to contract. The price was not a bargain and no cheaper than NZ or Australian prices. He agreed that they didn't have the skills to acheive that level of finish and after all it is only a Wharram. Although that was his opinion it was not mine.

Anyway, I told him that I was prepared to write of the extra US$50K that I had paid him in order to have a smooth transition and removal of the hulls.

At that stage I was willing to let the matter be left at that. But, over the following months when I saw how ***** treated Creed I was absolutely disgusted. Not only did he say some very bad things about Creed which were untrue but he threatened me and other with criminal defamation proceedings.

He apparently 'confiscated' Creeds boat with no notice to him and 'sold' it, even though he never completed the contract and has never provided an accounting to Creed or his lawyers. There was no offer to return the equipment that Creed had put on the boat himself such as the wind vane. That was 'confiscated' as well.

For readers in Western countries this seems unbelievable that someone can do this...as normally one can get recourse through the courts. But, unfortunately that is not so simple for a foreigner in Thailand. Creed lost directly US$135,000 plus the stuff he put on the boat plus travel costs and time. He could easily spend another $100K in pursuing this through the courts with competent international lawyers. Then at the end of the day...it is faily meaningless because with a judgment the defendant can file an appeal (with minimal cost) and drag it out for years...and who knows where anyone may be in 5 years from now?

I hope that this clears up a few things and better explains the delimma faced by Creed and others.

Because this situation has tended to reflect badly and unfairly on other Thai boat builders I should say that there are some good boat builders in Thailand. As a matter of fact I will be making a post in my blog shortly about the rigging and masts which I am going to have built in Phuket by Gunther Nutt of Seascape. www.naturalhigh-adventures.com

I should also say that ***** is a likeable guy. He still has a chance to redeem himself by showing some respect to his customers, being honest and making an effort to make amends to those people he has wronged. For my part I bear in no malice in the writing off of my US$50,000 but I am annoyed that I have had to spend about an extra $15,000 in fixing the beam troughs and he was not even prepared to say he was sorry...instead calls me a clown.

Maybe he will see the light some day, I hope for his sake and the sake of his customers that he does...and soon.

Warren Matthews

 

This is making Thailand look like a lawless place which of course it is not.

If these agreements (what ever they are) have not been put in writing then one can be taken to the cleaners here as you could in any country by doing business word of mouth.

If however there is written evidence then it can be taken up by one of many local lawers.

 

Frosty...I did not say that Thailand is a lawless place and if it was read that way, it was not my intention...it just operates differently than most western countries. There are also some rather quaint laws there as well which tends to make some operators bolder. For example, the fact that if you say something about someone who has done a 'dirty deal' the guilty one can still go to the local police and file a complaint and have the other party arrested who then has to spend lots of money in defending a criminal action which is a civil action in other countries. Saying the truth is no defence.

Thailand is a wonderful country but there are lots of legal traps for the unintiated.

It is very expensive to hire international lawyers and they are really the only ones to use if you are going up against a local in a smaller city such as Pattaya. In Bangkok, different ballgame.

Even with a court judgement it still does not guarantee that you will collect.

The points that I raised are all documented and were part of the specifications and contract on Creeds boat. It is all there on paper. At the end of the day it is really a matter of whether one wants to throw good money after bad to try and obtain a judgment which may or may not be enforceable. In that regard it is a business decision. Creed may still opt to proceed with court action but I know from some top level lawyer friends in Bangkok that it could drag on 5 years and costs LOTS of money.

Warren

 

Of course it operates differently from Western countries,--its Thailand.

An international lawer is useless. The Thai courts are Thai only, all documents presented will have to be Thai. You need a fluent Thai speaker don't you think?

You need a Thai lawer.

Ive only lived here 20 years and Ocean Marina is about 2 Km away from me.

You are misinformed, if you win the case the foreigner will be in a lot of trouble believe me.

Yes it could take a long time. Pattaya -Bangkok? ---no difference what so ever.

 

Hi Frosty...when I was referring to an international lawyer I was referring to an international firm of lawyers who have operations in Bangkok...and there are many. I agree that it would be crazy to hire an international firm outside of the country. These firms have Thai litigators on staff. Of course all the documents have to be in Thai as the proceedings are obviously in Thai.

However, the contracts and all the documentation in the case of Creed (and myself) are in English. This is why it is desirable to use a larger firm, not a local lawyer. It is a big job. The briefing has to be done in English (assuming the customer is English speaking). It should be done in the presence of both the English speaking lawyer and the Thai litigator who is usually bi-lingual.

Then there is all the translations to be done, and the on going difficulties of continuing communications from over the other side of the world.

Local lawyers often do not have the resources to put all this together properly and no matter which lawyer you use...(and this is the same world-wide) you are effectively giving them an open check book, which is when you have to make a decision as to which is better...business prudence or principles.

Whichever way you look at it one has to be prepared to spend a lot of money to litigate and at the end of the day there is no certainty about the final outcome no matter how strong a case you feel you have, and in the event of a successful judgement...no guarantee of collecting. On the last point this can be a problem no matter where you are in the world. I once wrote off $7M in the US even though I had a water tight case. It would have cost me $1M+ to get it through the courts but as the lawyers admitted I would never see a dime of it as there were a number of mechanisims that the defendant could use to avoid paying.

If I was suing an individual, or a small firm or a company that may be insolvent then I would want the court to require the defendant to put an appropriate amount of money in escrow...at least to cover the legal costs...

At the end of the day no matter how good the paper work and evidence is or how strong a case may be, justice does not always prevail. So, sometimes it is best just to accept the losses and move on.

Warren

 

Frosty can you explain what you mean when you say :

"if you win the case the foreigner will be in a lot of trouble believe me".??

 

Well--as a foriegner he can be asked --forced to leave the country, he may have family here and probably does.

His fine will not be as negotiable as others!!!!. His work permit may and probably will be cancelled.

All this can be repaired but what a pain, and the cost will be substantial.

He has more to loose than that of the local.

 

Oh boy !...................OK...... I get it now................thanks...



Also ...(often wondered about this ....) If an ex pat aussie wanted to stay in Thailand ....are there a lot of conditions / criteria to satisfy ?

 

As an Aussie --hardly nothing.

Ive just come back from the Immigration actually as I have just converted a non immigrant visa obtained outside the country like Pinang or better you own country before leaving.

This visa can be converted to a retirement visa and you can stay for 1 year,--- this can be re rewnewable without leaving the country.

You have to be over 50, have 800,000 baht in a savings account in Thailand and you cant work without a work permit. Thats it,-- you can stay forever as long as you meet that simple criteria.

I will get my passport back on Monday afternoon at 1 PM I will then apply for a multiple re entry permit allowing me to exit and re enter the country as many times as I want on that retirement visa.

All that costs me about 100 pounds per year.

That Visa also allows me to get a driving licence, buy a condominium or buy a company that may or may not have a house as assets.

In other words buying a company that owns a house and Thai land means you own a house in your name through a company.

You can also buy a vehicle and register it in your name.

 

800.000 baht ....that`s only $ A 27,000.00

Can that be right :?:

All sounds easy Frosty.....

 

"he" / "His" ?

Frosty,

Forgive me that I don't understand. But do you mean RB by "he" and "His" ?

Regards, Angélique

 

Thailand here I come ;-)

And it's only € 16,389.36

Sounds good !!!

Thailand here I come

Regards, Angélique

 

No mistakes there or exaggeration,-- I assure you 100%. I just did it yesterday and thats how most do it. Those that dont use that system are generally held up with the 800,000 baht thing. Its also the way Thai immigration prefers, they can then keep track of who you are and unwanted criminals or more important **********,--which against popular believe are despised.

Why would you think it more difficult. There is a lot of expats here and some would say it has lost its charm. The bigger expat cities are more like European cities, the shopping is tremendous if thats what you want.

But 15 minute drive will take you out to "thailand' as it once was with deserted beaches and small fishing communities.

thaivisa.com if that doe'snt work google it.

 

Malaysia does a good one as well
http://www.mm2h.gov.my/

but you need more $$$ behind you than Thailand
http://www.mm2h.gov.my/conditions.php