Westlawn School

JC - I am almost through to the end of the Westalwn course. The text books are proprietry books written by recognised authors specifically for the course. Their 'cost' is covered by the tuition fees. All are in the process of undergoing a thorough modernisation. I would suggest that you talk directly to the school - they are very approachable and I'm sure would be very happy to answer any questions that you might have.
I have learned an enormous amount from doing the course. In spite of CD Barry's remarks (he has very srong feelings on this, over which we've clashed before! ) I would recommemd it to almost anyone. It is not the be-all-and-end-all - it is a 1st step into a career in yacht design (like all forms of education). Depending on what field your son wants to enter, it may or amy not be suitable - but note, it is not for the faint of heart (read motivation & dedication) there is a lot of work to be done and a lot to learn. Finsih it and he will have achieved something of which he can be proud.....

 

Can you convince him to go to a 4 year engineering school for Nav. Arch?
I've looked through a lot of the Westlawn stuff, and know one guy who went through the course. He ended up going back to 4yr engineering school and is working as a civil engineer because he couldn't make any money in yacht design. I went to 4yr nav. arch. school and had multiple job offers. If he goes to a 4 yr engineering school, he can pick up the westlawn texts and learn the yacht design specifics in a matter of weeks, or even days, if he digested the engineering. Plus he can get a good paying job, if he doesn't have yacht design work pounding in his door (which he won't). The reverse also won't hold, i.e. if he graduates from Westlawn, he won't be an engineer.

IMHO, to maximize your education investment, get the 4 year degree first.

 

I agree, if he can stand 4 years at university level and then do the Macnaughton shool part time afterwords (while he has a well paid job).

 

The trend is toward increasing regulation in yacht design. I'm 58 and believe I can just about squeak through the rest of a yacht design career (in the US) without an engineering degree, but I think it's safe to assume that a youngster starting out in this field must choose between being a degreed engineer, or a draftsman (an underpaid slave who gets to draw other peoples' ideas).

 

If you look back through the comments on the discussion board at the MacNaughton site (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/disc5_toc.htm) you may be able to find when he says that no one has ever finished the course. The reason given is that the students all get jobs first. The real reason is.... well, I don't know if there is some other reason, but it's not a recommendation.

An engineering degree is the way to go if possible, but the NA courses and the current license exams are not focused on small craft. The current situation is unsatisfactory, and the trend is in the wrong direction.

 

Sorry To Bother, Mr Jc Farer

My Name Is Frank M.p.barretto.
Sorry To Bother You Mr. Jc Farer. I Don't Have The Kind Of Information You Are Asking. But I Would Like To Say That I'm In The Same Situation As Your Son. I Want To Attend For Some Yacht Design Course, But Havent Decided Between Westlawn Or The Macnoughton Yacht Design Course. All I Have To Say Is That My Father Told Me That He Would Do Anything To Help Me Get My Freedom, Not To Be A Slave Working For A Salary. And These Words Made Me Feel That My Father Is Really My Best Friend. No Matter What I Do With This #"%&%& Degree, He Is Happy That I'm Trying To Be The Best That I Can.
Of Course I Won't Let Him Pay, But Those Words Ment So Much...

 

Hi J.C.
That was a great post. I'm using the Mcnaughton course for the same reason as Raggi Thor. If I feel I've learned what I want , I can move on without a huge commitment of time and money. My only knowledge of Westlawn is what I've read in their brochures and website. I can't imagine the book list would include any fluff as Mcnaughtons does not.
Take a look at Mcnaughton. If it doesn't pan out it would definately be less of an investment and definately not a waste of time.
Chandler

 

Wetslawn

Hawdy all...

I'm not exactly sure what I have started here but thank you all. I'm not sure for what, but it sounds good, so my hat off to all of you.

I have in fact looked at the list of books...and it looks like the kiddo might have some serious reading to do, so I don't feel so bad...but, I also decided to look at the McNaughton group and I am quite impressed with their approach. I am enclosing below the e-mail that was sent to me when I inquired about the school. I have put in bold, the things I think are important for personal and spiritual growth and am almost inclined to take up the course with my son since I will probably have to sit with him and break it down anyway.


"You can find negative comments about every school. We have had 3 students in our 15 year history who quit mad, despite our best efforts, and one of them said the most amazing and twisted things about us on the Internet. So I would be cautious about negative statements about Westlawn or any school. They may not be justified. The best thing is to follow up with the school about any negative comments and see what they did to try to resolve the situation. That can tell you a lot about their attitude.

Distance learning mostly takes the passion to keep going. The limitation that Westlawn has for your son may be in the limits on the way they teach. We make it very clear that if your math and drawing skills have problems we will help you to any extent you need to learn these things. Westlawn very specifically, in letters I have been shown, tells students that it is not their job to teach them math and drawing. The only requirement like that which we have is that students must be reasonably fluent in English. This is not out of lack of desire to help those coming from a different language culture but simply our own lack of ability in other languages. We have students who have had great trouble with multiplying and dividing and students whose first boat drawing was completely unrecognizable as a boat. We work with them to evolve procedures and methods that get them around these problems. Another point, if you are worried about your son’s discipline, is that we charge on a per lesson basis, there are no time limits, and there are no “late” or “extension” fees.

Yes, Westlawn does have a lot more “hype” than we do. But please remember that it is a matter of choosing a style of promotion that will bring in the type of students you work well with. They try to paint a picture of prestige and dominance because there are many potential students out there who are very impressed with that. We try to present a humbler, more personal, style because that works best at attracting the students we work best with. They are looking primarily for people who wish to get jobs in the drafting departments of boat “manufacturers”. We are looking primarily for people who want to get jobs with or found independent design firms or perhaps be in house designers for custom yacht builders. Their glossier style is also more appropriate to the “mass market” advertising that they do, whereas we do no advertising whatsoever. We simply rely on word of mouth to bring people to us either directly or by getting them to look at our web site. The “glossier” approach is not very appropriate to this type of promotion. So really these are just different marketing approaches, each appropriate to the target audience.

As to size, remember that the size of any school of yacht and small craft naval architecture is, of necessity, limited. As near as I can figure at any given time there are no more than 1,000 people seriously interested in studying yacht design in the whole world at any given time. This places a severe limit on how large schools can get and the number of viable schools. At present there are only four real schools of yacht design in the whole world. Our YDS and Westlawn are the two largest. The other two are relatively very small programs but do a good job at what they are attempting. Be careful of statistics though in comparing schools. Either Westlawn or YDS can be called the larger school depending on which statistics you quote. The difference is that we don’t want to be known as the larger school. We are much more interested in emphasizing the personal nature and focus on the individual student of our school. As to how long schools have “been in business”, that too is a matter of which facts you choose. We started teaching students as they came to us very quietly in 1989 and the school evolved steadily and slowly until we reached a “critical mass” in the late 90s when there were so many people recommending us that it suddenly started to “chain reaction”. Since then, we have grown very big, with quite a staff. So you can say we are 15 years old, still under the direction of the founder and with an evolving staff learning the traditions of the school as they join us and work with us. On the other hand there was a school named Westlawn decades ago. Somewhere in, I think, the late 1960s the original owner sold out to the NBBMA who put in their own staff and shortly thereafter completely re-wrote the curriculum to more effectively compete with the late great Yacht Design Institute, of which we are the spiritual successor. Was Westlawn then a new school of the same name as the old one, or the same school? About a year ago the same thing happened again. The Westlawn name and student list was sold to ABYC who fired the entire staff and put in their own people. Does that make it the same school or a new one? So you see many of these things are a matter of interpretation.

Do be sure to ask all the questions you want.


Sincerely,
Tom MacNaughton
Naval Architect
www.macnaughtongroup.com"


You see gents, these are things that make a difference in a person no matter what they want to be. I can tell you right now that with those principles, that cheap tuition with the option to get out anytime you want is irrelevant in my mind. Those values are priceless. My father taught me not to be a snob and sneer down at people regardless of how high you are on the ladder because one day they will sneer at you snobbishly while you're on the way down.

I don't see anything wrong if my son sat down with a poor broken down dreamer to design a work of art for them at at a loss. I would resent him if he didn't make time to do that so that he can sit with a rich healthy opportunist. Anybody see the difference?

Well, I plan to definitely look into this option and have every intention of giving the kiddo my findings, (objective) so that he can make a more informed decision.

For now, I have to answer all these other posts as it would be rude if I didn't.
Jay

 

All true, but regarding the above...there is nothing for zero.

 

Hello there bachelor...
Always have always will...not sure whom I would be or where I would be if I had'nt or don't.

 

Hello Fede...

I think I believe with most of what you say but there are some things that I'm not sure I would agree on.
Kids need parents to advise, guide and direct them instead of making decisions for them. If you inform them and give them wisdom to be able to reason out solutions to crossroads, then you have succeeded because in the end, they will unknowinly decide that which you most emphasize. After all, how can a 20 year old teach me how to be 21?

 

Hawdy...

I'm not really into convincing anyne to do what I think they should do. I want him to do what he wants, but not because of compulsion. He needs to look at this systematically and methodically and then decide with passion. It's for him and not me...

 

If he reads half of the books and remember a third he'll be alright.

I would look to see if there was enought structure in the program to make that happen yet enough flexibility for him to follow his own course, selfstudy or excess rigidity is usually not the best aproaches with students with variyng levels of interest and commitment.

If $8000 could buy him a job he wouldn't need to go to school - if he doesn't learn anything it will only buy him an interview.

Get the degree first, if he doesn't want to go give him the $8000 in cash so he can start his own business building canoes and do it his own way.

Without experience "make believe degrees" are not worth anything - just ask the 100.000 IT folk who became "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers". A lot of them would have been better off if they had learned to build benches instead of sitting on them.

 

No bother Frank...

If I can be of any help, just ask. My advise to you will probably be the same I will give my son You have to live with yourself before you can live with anyone else, so be someone you can live with and do what you want to do to live instead of doing something else so you can exist. Keep it real and be realistic...there is nothing wrong with making money because you have a degree or have accomplished a goal in any field. The wrong thing is having a degree or accomplishing a goal that didn't elevate your understanding and knowledge to a higher level. Yeah okay, you won't let him pay and he'll crawl on glass to make sure you don't pay for it...this is the dochotomy of parenthood and "sonhood". Who can explain it. You should pay for it...it will give you a better understanding of the struggle to get what you want but we don't want you to struggle. Go figure.

 

Hawdy Chandler...the passionate one.

Thank's for your compliment but you need to understand that the post was just honest, no more and no less. Be patient and all things will materialize before you. I don't think you should move on once you feel you learned what you want because it sounds very limiting. Finish the course and then write them and ask about what else they have that you can learn. I think that learning is lifelongand if someone can teach you something without you having to overcome all the tribulations, then learn it. It hurts less and it lasts longer. I now have the wifey telling me to practice what I preach so I might look at McNaughton too...I can give up some sail time I guess.