Welding a steel hull

All,
Re: Burning; the supplied oxygen requirement for a neutral flame,
with Acetylene is 1 to 1,
with propane is 4 1/2 to 1

In deference to Brent's opinion; oxy-propane makes a much cleaner cut.

6010/11 is susceptible to cold-cracking, 7018 is not. As well, 6010/11 has a lower tensile strength & is less ductile. Most people who weld with 6010/11, don't know how to manipulate it correctly. I've seen this deficiency in a number of Swain designed boats, Including those built by Brent. 6010/11 is a better rod for welding rusty or dirty steel, but if you're building a new boat, why would you use garbage metal?

Wire; Yeah, that's the ticket. while I'd recommend that the tacking be done with stick, wire will save you a lot of time. What's the catch? Though a welder well-practiced in solid wire(GMAW) will be furthest ahead in cost savings, even skilled welders who are not proficient with solid wire can lay down a bead that, though visually acceptable, lacks in fusion, penetration, and/or density. Flux core(FCAW) is almost idiot proof. The resulting bead is about 5x stronger than with stick.

So, for the amateur? I'd recommend lo-hi(7018). The newer inverters supply more than enough juice.

There is a point at which sqeezing pennies becomes stupidity. I,ve seen builders keep a tight budget, until it comes to rigging & electronics, then blow the bank. All of the rigging & electronics in the world won't keep you afloat.

A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the know", Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed smoker, here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his builds & have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an "all-position" stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or shut up, Brent.

For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the origamiboats web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at hand, was a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's remarks, I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that Brent did a Half-*** job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there were few - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. Alex was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the boat was mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, due to the tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at least 2 years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of protection(pictures are available for verification). I felt that the project was worth about $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. The owner of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, which I felt was dishonest.
Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was advertised for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price.

While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, more & less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. This is a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually wish to sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have built Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 years. To wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash.

From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my employment is in the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running stick at age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical engineer, but started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a certifed welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near Vancouver, and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the age of 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a boilermaker, in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the Philippines, in the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and would not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow.
Mike

 

To the amateur steel boatbuilder:
I'd recommend; Plating - The use of zinc primed, wheel-abraded steel, as a starting point. Other metal - new mild steel/stainless, preferably "white" & marine grade, low carbon. Cutting - performed with plasma arc, skill saw, jig saw. abrasive wheel & zip-cuts(grinder). Tack with 7018 "stick" below waterline, 7018 or 6010/11 above(SMAW), weld with dual shield(FCAW).

Tight budget; cut with skill-saw, jig-saw & zip-cuts. Weld with stick - 7018 below waterline. Not essential to use zinc primed steel, BUT, at end of EACH day, cover cut and weld areas with weld-through primer. Prior to applying insulation/etc., have a professional inspect the welding.

A cutting torch is fine for thicker metal, but will warp your plating material, when making long cuts.
Mike
Remember: the beauty of building with steel is that you can re-do virtually anything, usually, very quickly.

 

i read most of what you say
But you are not a boatbuilder per se,you are a fitter welder, a welder is not a boatbuilder, to get a welder, good, then convert him into a builder takes time i get really pissed off with engineering shops that suddenly turn builder, they turn out crap
Flame cutting can help in shrinking edges in round bilge, ,
Peining edges, is mandatory after the cut Nimblers, noisy waste time, oxy propane, small jet lo pressure, just enough to cut, will leave the plate edge cool
Look at my gallery , before I did this , I used to build steel
Lots of what you say is true, BUT there is a big difference between a welder, and a boatbuilder
Welders, the most important thing in smaw, is open circuit voltage, the average heap of crap small power pac has such a lo open circuit voltage , it makes even a pro get mad, hard to strike arc even with 6012, impossible with lo hydrogen(hi ten cor ten)
Do you not think your rod classifaction, is a bit broad, frinstance, going back 30 years i seem remember I used phillips 48 for ups and 28 for downhands, bit like changing currants and voltages on mig,
Modern power pacs, umph, dont teach a welder, cos they are programmed? Straight mig, lays in more wire than pulse, hell could go on forever

I,m not really mad at you mate)
anyway IMO, steel has nothing at all going for it except strength when belting around on a coral atoll, built correctly it is more expensive than alloy, cos the build times are greater, painting is more expensive and every and each time you wanna drill a hole you end up with a rusty pile of waste drillings in your bilge

 

After years of building dozens of steel boats I would be inclined to agree.

 

Nice to see some honesty returning to the web....I too love steel boats, my last cruising yacht was steel, but it sure is not an easy material for the seawater environment in any way shape or form.

but of course, there is no perfect boat or material...it is all a compromise.

 

Dang Welder/fitter
Who rattled your chain again?
Not sure what you meant "Swain Lackie"
Tom
Ps Dont recall trying to save Brent eather

 

Lazeyjack - Though I agree with you when you say that a welder is not a boatbuilder - by far - I would suggest that my boatbuilding experience, combined with my work as a welder/shipfitter/fabricator, leave me reasonably well disposed to discuss the construction of steel hull boats. I wouldn't compare myself with veteran professional builders, nor with any seasoned naval architects or designers. With all due respect, some of what you stated seemed garbled, too mixed to understand, so I can't comment on it. Of course, an oxy-fuel torch is handy, obviously, I left it out of my suggestions, as I did a lot of other tools & equipment. In regard to welders, I have no complaints with GMAW, if the welding operator knows when they are/aren't laying down a suitable bead. Personally, I'd prefer FCAW, if using wire, because that is what I use at work & am most comfortable with. For stick welders, maybe it depends on geography, but I have found it easy to get a DC welder, capable of 200A@60%(or more) for a few hundred dollars, both in North America & Asia. As you know, the time difference between welding a hull/deck with wire is much quicker than stick, though, for the "one-off amateur" builder, the cost of a GMAW or FCAW set up, may be beyond the budget, if dollars are more dear than build time.

On Steel vs. Aluminum - Boy, have I been through this discussion before, as I expect, all of you have. I prefer steel. I accept that there are pros & cons for each, but personal experience has lead me to my preference. When working for my father's engineering firm, I paid a routine visit to one of our clients, ABD, an aluminum superyacht builder, in North Vancouver, Canada. My visit coincided with the testing of the welds on the hull of a 95' yacht. In Canada, welds on a new steel hull need only be tested at staggered locations, whereas, welded seams on aluminum hulls must be fully x-rayed. On this same boat, The technician pointed out to me an area which had a gas pocket in it. Though there was no apparent visual difference between the x-rayed section & adjoining sections of the seam, there was a gas pocket of almost 1 1/2" long, with a width of almost that of the weld bead. Interestingly, the fellow who did the welding was someone who I currently work with & is one of the best welders I've known, certainly in the top three, in terms of skill level & experience.

Though I may, at some point, build in aluminum, I believe that I'll be better- off sticking to what I know best, which is steel. I believe that people make the choice between the two, based on their beliefs in what they want in a boat. As we know, each has advantages & disadvantages, when compared to each other & other build materials. Example: Next week I'm going to do stainless handrails for a 50' ferrocement sailboat. I looked at these boats, decades ago, and quickly decided that I'd never want one. Still, you can bet that the boat's owner will be trying to sell me on his boat's good points, the entire time I am there. As well, I've owned several FRP boats and, overall, I have no major complaints. To each, his/her own, no?

 

my dear fellow, I am sure you are competant at what you do, and you seem knowledgable on welding which is refreshing, yes my posts can be a bit garbled, gimbled, ,
they are screwing you welders, down here once you are ticketed and in constant practice, they x ray nothing, the first ship in NZ they are entitled x ray 10%
In small yachts, poor steel welding can be got away with, but not in ships
one of my boats ran into a rock a t 20knots, it pushed the chine way up, but the welds did not break
I found it took 5 years to make a first class welder of alloy
The drill is, just do test pieces as you go, nick break, bend around mandrel, etc, thats all you need, shows lack root fusion, whch is the main NO NO
X ray is a costly waste money , except on fuel tankers
as for personal preference, i think until you have built both and perhaps owned both, then you can not get a clear picture?

 

Mike, If you would. Don't talk about my boat. I am very happy with it and am confident of it's abilities as an ocean going vessel. If you have a problem with my boat e-mail me and we can talk about it in person. I'll be coming to vancouver in a few days.

 

Welder/ Fitter
I have been nice to you and refrained from name calling but sence you didnt explain the meaning of swain lackie and brought it up 3 weeks latter on different thread ,
I think you are a *****, you think because you have a ticket youre opinion is worth more than anyone elses and what the heck does youre grandpa or dad have to do with it, Flux core wire 5x the strength of stick "bull" prove it, show me any testing that states anything close to that and not your opinion.
There are many ways to weld a boat together and they have all been proven to revert to calling me names and inuwindows because I dont aggree 100% with you shows your inteligents.
I hate to tell you this but just because a welder is certified dont mean didly so throwing that up all the time dont help.
Try encouraging an amature welder not putting him down and comparing his welds to yours and this crap of getting a welding inspector to check welds, all that does is line your pockets and make you feel macho because you have a ticket to do so, doesnt help the amature at all.
Since you are so opinionated on welding proccedures start naming amature built boats that sank because of poor welding especialy the ones that didnt use 7018 or the great flux core wire " you have never said whitch flux core wire to use"
If you want to have an inteligent conversation about welding fine but if you want to revert to calling me names go ahead, others might get a good laugh and see what you are realy like.
Dont like origami boats, Brent, Myself , or anyone that built one fine, stay off are site and keep your mouth shut, keep putting them down and one day it will bite you. "Hint"
Tom

 

Tom,
Personally, I don't care how you weld your boat, tig it, for all I care. The suggestion of using lo-hi for below the waterline, was just that, a suggestion. I've never tried to "paint" myself as an expert on boatbuilding, I've described my background for others to understand from where my perspective comes. I don't recall ever "putting down" an amateur welder, in fact, Those amateur builders whom I have worked with/for will, I trust, state the opposite, that I have been patient & encouraging.

Your post is a regurgitation of our discussions of a year ago, you are concentrating on your ignorant dislike of the messenger, not on the message. As a result, you jump to erroneous conclusions.

No time to play games with you. I'll continue to go anywhere on the internet I choose, say what I wish, with, or without, the permission of the "online origamiboats police". Save your threats for someone you can intimidate, tough guy.

 

((Tom,
Personally, I don't care how you weld your boat ))

Good wish you would have felt that a year ago, there would have been no problem

((Your post is a regurgitation of our discussions of a year ago, you are concentrating on your ignorant dislike of the messenger))

Hmm dont suppose its things like this do ya?

(For those of you who are not "in the know", Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed smoker, here to save Brent from unknown evil)
Or the stuff you said about me on other thread.
I would still like to know witch miracle flux core wire you are refuring to that has 5x the strength of stick?
Come back and bite you "hint" was not a threat to try to intimidate you, corect me if I am wrong here but you stated you were going to open up your own shop here in the near future, Are you not in the middle of origami boat country? there is a lot being built around that area and it seems to me your burnin your bridges before you even start. But what do I know mabee steping on the toes of potential costomers is the way to go.

 

O.k., I'll bite.
1) 1.4mm - E70T-1, E70T-9 - no magic here. single pass either, do the same with the rod of your choice (6010/11?, 7018?), t-joint, break them.
2) I suggest that you not speak for all members of the origamiboats group, as some members have opinions that are in line with my own. With all due respect to the membership, most could not, or would not wish to, spend the coin that it will take to buy one of the boats which I will be constructing. I see little value in building boats of 40 feet, or less, as there are enough used boats in that range that are available for below construction costs.
3) I told you a year+ ago that I couldn't care less how you build your boat. I suggested that builders consider lo-hi, to avoid cracking. That was a suggestion by my father, by the way, hence the reference. I have reread all of the posts, e-mails, etc., of last year and have not found any place where I did more than make a suggestion - regarding rod choice - & offer evidence as to the value of such a modification. Has someone passed a law that says everyone must do it Brent's way, or Tom's way? Will it take a split seam to make you consider that there may be some value in what has been suggested?
I don't know, Tom, I think that you try to read between the lines for something more nefarious, but it just isn't there. As you did not see the subject, in person, how about if I send you the video, privately, and you can give me your own opinion? That way, no one gets their feathers ruffled.
4) While reading over the old posts, I noticed that you stated that you could weld faster/more with 6010/11, than 7018. That, I'd like to see, as would dozens of other welders up here. Surely, you meant pipe welding & not plate?
I will be out sailing for a couple of days, but will send you the video when I get back, if you want it.

 

welding

6011 is the only rod that will blow slag out of a weld zone. That is why a while ago 6011 was the only rod that Lloyds would approve of for small craft. It's far easier to screw up a weld using 7018 that using 6011, which makes the latter best for amateurs, or people working outdoors in less than ideal conditions.It drasticaly reduces the chances of slag inclusion.I've yet to hear of a 6011 weld failing. Mine were tested in 8 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja for 16 days without any failure.
I didn't do the welding on Alex's boat , his landlord did. I always encourage clients to hire someone else to do the welding. That leaves me more cruising time, which is what it is all about. I work a month a year or less, setting a good example for my clients. I have never claimed to be a welder.
Shinola, one of my 36 footers recently sold for $95,000 ,far less than he spent on her. Evergreen sold for $125,000 US , Island Breeze sold for $65,000 shortly after completing a circumnavigation, many times what he spent on her. Another 36 I built sold unfinished for $40,000 , what many including the owner considered a good deal. All were 36 footers .
The boat Alex bough cheap was extremely neglected and needed a lot of work..
I launched my 31 footer one month after the steel arrived, spent another ten days detailing her, another ten painting and another ten days rigging her. Then I went sailing.
Iron butterfly , a 36 footer was started in early february, launched in late april, cruising in may and headed for the South Pacific in November the same year. Costa Vida was launched one year after starting. The owners did several months working away from the project during the building proccess.
The first 36 I did was started in june and sailing in November the same year.
So some claim that reducing the amount of chine seams one has to cut, grind, match up and weld to 1/7th that of a Van de Stadt doesn't reduce building time? Does anyone actualy believe that? Where's the logic?
A piece of steel comes from the supplier fair. Some claim that doing far more to it than origami constructions does , makes it fairer? Where's the logic?
Welders working on one of my boats said" Brent is a good fitter, but the only problem we have is he doesn't grind all the edges." I said" Do you know what they call a fitter who grinds everything? A slow fitter." They, with all the welding tickets one could ask for warped the crap out of it, something I've never done.
A good cut needs no grinding, unless you are trying to maximise the number of hours you are being paid for. Shipyard workers do that a lot. I aways keep my clients budget in mind.
I told Mike that I have no intention of selling him any plans, nor doing any favours for someone who stabbed a friend in the back ,in order to force him to sell his boat at a giveaway price. I had that done to me when I was broke and trying to sell my last boat. That's when you find out who your real friends are. Mike couldn't pay me enough to do anything for him . Principles are not for sale.
Some claim that a design that has survived 16 days of pounding in 8 ft surf without serious dammage of any kind, which has survived being pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef , and a collision with a freighter in Gibralter, hurricane force winds in open sea, a single season passage thru the NW passage several circumnavigations, a november run down the Oregon coast , all withpout damage is not strong enough, if it is not approved, but a fibreglass or aluminium boat that would have broken up in minutes in the same conditions is safer if it is approved. Does anyone believe that?" Where's the logic?
Roberts designs have a habit of their skegs breaking off, in fact the designer says he designs the skegs to break off if they hit anything . This has resulted in several sinkings.metalboatsocety.com details this issue. Yet because they have frames, some say they are safer boats . Mine have had absolutely no structural problems at sea in any conditions. So where's the logic?
As Paul mentioned , my plans sell for less than the cost of study plans from most designers. This is because I don't ask my clients to buy me expensive electronic toys nor an expensive lifestyle.I get a great sense of accomplishment from seeing them out cruising, long after I've spent the money they gave me.
Brent Swain
Some claim that a chainplate for a 36 footer who's strength is calculated, and is determined to be minimum 2 inch by 1/4 inch is strong enough, but one made out of half inch by 4 inch plate is not strong enough? Where's the logic.
In the December 1989 issue of Cruising World , Richard McCurdy gives stability curves for several boats. It shows that a 12 meter has positive stability right up to 180 degrees , yet a so called "Modern" boat capsizes at 120 degrees, something that was almost unheard of in offshore boats before excessive beam became the norm. Someone suggested that a boat that capsizes at 120 degrees is the best we can hope for , and what offshore cruisers should settle for? Does anyone believe that? Where's the logic?
Mike , given your assertion that anyone in a vulnerable postion is fair game to be screwed out of ten grand , and his being in a vulnerable position gives anyone the moral right to screw him out of 10 grand, we are unimpressed with what your father has taught you. You may get a much rougher education if you try these tactics in the Philipines.
Brent

 

Thanks that wasnt a loaded question, I have run some of the flux cores 203. 211 but never tryed the dual shield, will give it a shot. Not sure how I will be able to tell if its that much stronger though, 100% penetration stick or wire I wont be able to break welds in a T-joint.
I sure dont recall telling anyone to weld my way or Brents way, When I started on the 26 there were a lot of people interested in it and asking questions and requesting pictures so I spent a lot of time awnsering questions and posting pictures, some would see the pictures of my welds and work and ask me how I welded it so I would take the time and tell them how I did it. then you apear out of the blue, I have no clue who you are never seen any of your work or boats "still havnt" and started correcting me about proccedure and method all based on your opinion. Yes I got a little hot under collar the second time around. To many times over the years I have had people try to tell me it has to be done another way or it cant be done and its based on opinion with nothing to back it up.
My statment about 6011 being faster for the work I do in the field vs 7018 is true and I have used both, I do a lot of dairy construction work and a lot of it is done with used well casing pipe with surface rust 6011 will burn through it and make a good sound weld 7018 needs to be a cleaner surface hence faster dont have to clean rust off miles of fence or shades. 6011 I can weld verticle up or down makes no differance , 7018 verticle up only. heavy plate welding I usualy fire up the mig, stick is to slow to me for that
Tom