Welders ?!? (Aluminum)

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by DHN, Dec 28, 2002.

?

What is your favorite welder brand?

  1. Miller

    35 vote(s)
    51.5%
  2. Lincoln Electric

    14 vote(s)
    20.6%
  3. Hobart

    6 vote(s)
    8.8%
  4. Other

    13 vote(s)
    19.1%
  1. murdomack
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Location: Glasgow

    murdomack New Member

    Ad Hoc

    No, these are not just "some guys who can weld", these were two welders working for a contractor and known to me and the inspector, the clients reps, for many years. We did not have records of their structural codings as they were working as piping welders previously. The structural test is a Lo-Hi stick root, which not every welder can do, The idea of the pictures was so that the inspector could assess their roots before he scheduled time and transportation to attend their official testing, which was on new test-pieces in his presence.

    I was merely trying to point out that a picture can be useful. As you say, it cannot be part of the testing, but it served a useful function in deciding if the welders were able to pass the test. We already knew that they could fill and cap the welds, so only the root was the unknown quantity.

    I personally have little or no knowledge of Aluminium MIG welding and as I said previously, if I have a repair, or mod,to do on one of our boats, I prefer to get an experienced boat-builder, preferrably the builder, to do the work. Our QA man will make sure that the welders certs meet our requirements and are entered in our project files. If there is a problem we would ask the welder to do a test to our procedures. All the welding would be inspected visually by our inspector and would also be tested by our ndt contractor. If Woosh was that boat-builder that's how it would be for him as well.

    A contractor or boat-builder can promise anything, but it is the client, or his surveyor, who has to make sure that he is building quality.
     
  2. lumpy bumpy
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: jarrow england

    lumpy bumpy Junior Member

    This threads great , especially the photos ha ha , ad hoc ive got to ask you why you think that weld looks ok , surely you can see the obvious visible flaw before the ut.
     
  3. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    murdomack

    A boat built to class requires all structural welds to be welded by coded welders, regardless of ones own internal procedures. If you haven't passed the Class certs, then you can't welded do structural welding, period. You can have as many internal certs as you like, they're not accepted as "proof" for Class to validate. Sounds like you're in a different field to me.

    Lumpy Bumbpy

    I wasn't expecting anyone to notice or comment on the minor visible flaws (oversized/overlap bead to name a few). I was merely indicating that lack of side wall fusion (in some cases)cannot be confirmed without an x-ray. In other words, pictures, especially taken at a distance don't give the full picture and can also be misleading. (one guy i knew of in the yard i worked at, his welds looked terrible, not bad enough to fail....but nearly, yet he passed his x-rays 100%, never failed).

    Something visible, is only half the picture. Which may or may not indicate a problem. I've seen many welds with visible flaws that have been signed off approved by the Class surveyor, which I would not. But that is a different story, which i have commented upon publicly at conferences directly to Class and others.
     
  4. murdomack
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Location: Glasgow

    murdomack New Member

    Ad Hoc

    Did I not say that the welders were testing for AWS D1.1? We have a resident ABS surveyor on our FPSOs who reviews everything structural, whether material or welding that is added to them.

    We have run welding procedures with a welding institute and these are aproved by ABS. Our work is probably 40% ABS, the rest is on process equipment, mostly Asme B31.3.

    Whoosh shows pictures of his work, he provides evidence that he has built to Lloyd's standards, he might not know everything that you know, he might know lots that we don't know, but none of us knows everything, no matter how long we spend working at it.

    Regarding your last statement about visible flaws being accepted by the class surveyor, surely your welding inspector should have had these repaired after they failed his visual inspection, not just for the sake of satisfying the surveyor but to enforce your welders quality standards.
     
  5. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    murdomack

    Ahh..no, you didn't mention this. Hence my statement. Your welders have done more than just pass an exam taken 40 years ago! I can't imagine your QA or ABS accepting a welder who took an exam 40 years ago and let them weld major structure.

    Doing work in unison with a welding institute is certain a good way. At my old yard we worked heavily with the TWI in the UK, as well as obtaining LR and DNV ISO QA 9000.

    As for visual inspection..well, that's the point, he didn't fail them! I've gone into print on this, i was also invited to present a lecture on ally welding and fatigue last year. I raised this issue again, caused some interesting debate with Class who were in the audiance too. Too much is relied upon for quality by a visual inspection of major structure. This then becomes subjective.



    I see whoosh has still not bothered to answer the questions i asked yet wishes to make statements regarding his competency that one must just accept without question.

    One of the best welders I know, always takes great pride in telling me the certs and codes he has passed and currently has. I got an email from him recently, with another cert he has obtained. He is now LR coded on welding 1.8mm ally overhead with MIG. This is the type of reply i was expecting from whoosh to justify his claims (as he aggressively wants others to do but he does not reciprocate), sadly far from it was the reply. (as noted in posts #41 and #43).
     
  6. lumpy bumpy
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: jarrow england

    lumpy bumpy Junior Member

    There aint a welder among the lot of you
     
  7. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    as far as I know Hobart made the only true PULLING gun, here it is, the motor was llineal, in fact the system was called the linear 1 and linear 2 came later Up to 3 motors could be in the gun cable The gun was so slim, with gooseneck fitted anwhere When Michigan Machine took over miller and then hobart, they stopped making, although it is fair to say they stopped production before then, I used to buy direct off of Hobart brothers in Troy Ohio, They were very helpful, brilliant engineers The space programme was built using hobart equipement, and you still see Hobart on gtound starting stuff at airports
    Miller now has a new linear gun, I suspect it is modelled on this one
    you can see how the wire goes thru the motor, the motor carried the weld currant, and the wire was gripped by the spring loaded arms which had rollers on end, I got to know all the ways of rebuilding the motors although just the armature was 1000 as a spare part, After abt 500 kg of al al wire they slowed up , and that was it I ran 4 of these, and quite frankly felt lost at the end of their life, because all the others, Hofftiger, bernard, binzel were clunkers abnd really only assist guns The motor at the feeder end was the same The gun motor could pull the wire through alone, 25 feet gun cable, although not well

    i think when I,m ready will buy as the machine will work on 200 --11kva volts, in single and 3 phase


    Push-Pull MIG Gun's Unique Tension Control Optimizes Aluminum Welding

    o Miller's XR(TM)-Aluma-Pro(TM) eliminates drive roll tension setting guesswork

    o First air-cooled gun to achieve 300 amp/100 percent duty cycle rating

    o Easy maintenance

    APPLETON, Wis., August 21, 2007-Miller Electric Mfg. Co.'s new XR-Aluma-Pro(TM) gooseneck-style MIG gun optimizes feeding performance for 4000 and 5000 series aluminum through a two-position, series-specific tension control. Proper drive roll tension solves problems related to wire burn-back, erratic feeding and arc fluctuations, helping aluminum fabricators improve productivity.

    The air-cooled XR-Aluma-Pro is the first push-pull gun rated for welding at 300 amps/100 percent duty cycle, 100 amps more than competitive guns. A higher duty cycle can eliminate the need for a water-cooled gun when welding aluminum up to 3/8-in. thick, thus reducing equipment acquisition costs by about $1,100.

    "We increased duty cycle by developing a unique design that keep the head tube and gun body cooler. A cooler head tube and gun increases operator comfort while providing longer consumable life and lower maintenance," says Mike Vandenberg, product manager, Miller Electric Mfg. Co.

    For welding thicker aluminum at higher amperages, Miller offers the water-cooled XR-Aluma-Pro, rated for welding at 400 amps/100 percent duty cycle. Features common to both guns include a 3-¾ turn potentiometer for wire feed speed (WFS) control that provides better resolution and is easy to adjust while wearing welding gloves. An easy-to-rotate, self-seating head tube allows better access to tight spots, while a replaceable feed cable liner reduces parts cost and service time.

    A Different Kind of Tension

    Miller factory tests and pre-sets the tension on every XR-Aluma-Pro gun for 4000 series aluminum (a softer wire requiring a lighter setting) and 5000 series aluminum (a harder, more abrasive wire requiring more tension). When switching wire types, operators change tension using a screwdriver to turn a control on the side of the gun to one series-specific tension setting or the other (no in between setting is possible).

    Other MIG guns give operators free reign to fully adjust tension settings. Typically, operators think, "tighter is better." Unfortunately, too much tension deforms the wire and creates metal savings. Shavings create feeding problems by clogging the drive rolls and working their way into the head tube, which leads to erratic feeding, "micro arcing" within the contact tip and wire burn-back. These problems increase downtime, maintenance time and consumables cost.

    "The XR-Aluma-Pro's pre-set tension settings eliminate the guesswork and guarantee optimum feeding to make the welder's life easier," notes Vandenberg.

    Low Budget

    To reduce costs associated with maintenance, Miller designed the XR-Aluma-Pro gun with quick connectors and replaceable liners. The XR-Aluma-Pro's quick connectors link the control cable and electrical components such as the trigger assembly, potentiometer and motor leads and eliminate the need for cutting and soldering wires and when replacing these components. When the liner wears out, some competitive guns require end-users to replace the entire feed cable conduit. The Aluma-Pro Gun uses independent replaceable liners; customers only need to replace the liner, not the entire assembly.

    When combined with the Millermatic 350P or an XR Control cabinet and Miller XMT power source, the XR-Aluma-Pro provides a complete best-of-class aluminum welding system.

    The XR-Aluma-Pro Gun is covered by Miller's True-Blue® one-year factory warranty. To download a product spec sheet, visit Miller's Web site at http://www.MillerWelds.com, call 1-800-4-A-MILLER (800-426-4553), fax 877-327-8132 or write to Miller Electric Mfg. Co., P.O. Box 100, Lithonia, GA 30058.

    Miller Electric Mfg. Co. is a leading worldwide manufacturer of Miller brand arc welding equipment and is a wholly owned subsidiary of Illinois Tool Works Inc. (NYSE: ITW).
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  8. murdomack
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 309
    Likes: 23, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 282
    Location: Glasgow

    murdomack New Member

    Well, I don't know about the rest of them but you are right about me.

    I've just been out the back modifyng a small oil tank for my boat and I am going to be buying some cutting discs for my grinderette in the morning as I have left a few dodgy bits to say the least.

    I have an old Triangle AC box, something like the one Whoosh sent the picture in from Poland, or wherever it was, except I have a metal cover over mine. I bought it off a guy for a tenner around 30 years ago. It was all siezed up, but WD40 sorted it out. It's great for 4mm and 3.25mm's but for the smaller stuff it, and me, struggle. Welding-wise we're both past it:eek: .
     
  9. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    try the stop start technique on your thin stuff, , get your head down to 5 inches from the work, hit the joint, when it gets too hot pull off then before the redness goes start again keep your arc as short as you can
    there are rods and rods, most too watery to go vert up, try weldcraft for ups, phippip[s 48 or 68 Most beginners(like my sons) get the head too far away from the weld, you need to be able to really see whats happening and that applies to MIG al al too Use both hands on the handpice, the problem is with small machines is the open circuit voltage is too lo to easily second start, I bought a we toy machine recently and threw away the cables, upped in size, that helps a lot
     
  10. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    "...There aint a welder among the lot of you..."

    No argument there....but your point being?
     
  11. murdomack
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 309
    Likes: 23, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 282
    Location: Glasgow

    murdomack New Member

    My biggest problem these days is that my vision at 5 inches is very blurred. Even my reading glasses are set at computer screen range:D
    Anyway, it's done.
     
  12. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    speak fer yourself <mod note: insult removed> some of us can weld
    SGS is maybe the biggest and most known testing entity in the world
    I suppose next you will either steal my identity?
    Or deny this post
    Bah you dipstick
    Stand up be a man
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  13. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    It is not a case of whether one can or cannot weld, it is a matter of competency and quality. I know several guys who have been welding for decades, but i wouldn't let them loose on a major structure. They are the "I've been in this industry for 40 years, you can't tell me anything type"..no concept of QA.

    As noted before whoosh, this cert is 20 years old, it is for 5086 only, it is not a Class cert, nor does it show any bend testing or NDT results for compliance with any current Class/ISO/ASME standards, range of thickness etc, only visual. So as a stand alone cert, just shows you can perform a weld, fine, no argument there. I can weld too, but very badly...as it is not my day to day job. But just because i can weld, it doesn't automatically = quality and competency! Just as having a computer and program to draw or do calculations doesn't = quality or competency!

    The cert in now way indicates a level of quality, current or otherwise. You may well be able to weld, that is not the question. Quality is the question, which is totally a different issue...which appears lost on you.
     
  14. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 2,615
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    To be precise it's not the quality, it's actually an agreement of quality, that is, a standard.. and a standard in fact can define a quality not equal to Stu's or superior, what ever, depending what standard is in question. The only real problem in this discussion being it's not the same standard what you prefer.... period

    Weld safe :D
     
    1 person likes this.

  15. murdomack
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 309
    Likes: 23, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 282
    Location: Glasgow

    murdomack New Member

    I think Whoosh posted this cert in answer to your earlier post about the welder who had just passed his overhead and emailed you the good news.

    It is for the Certifying Authority to decide what inspection criteria to apply to any test-piece that they witness the welding of. SGS were happy with a visual examination of this weld and issued the certificate. The inspector would normally be present and inspect the weld at various stages.

    I am all in favour of QA but it has spawned an industry around itself and it sometimes seems as if some inspectors spend all their time trying to show everyone how clever they are. They can spend days emailing the world about different procedures and then find that the welders are not coded for what they suggest. They pick paint specifications from the clients procedures, again email the world, then I have to tell them that the nearest paint for that spec is 5,000 miles away.

    On my last hitch we got a contractor to fabricate a huge cantilever'd deck extension for an offshore platform. The work was done in a port area. It was going to be removed after it had served it's purpose, to land and skid on board a 100 tonne package, but as usual they decided once it was half -built that they would leave it on as a storage area. This meant that it would need a full Offshore paint coating before it left.

    A paint inspector, an American chap, came in to monitor the painting so I had the pleasure of driving him back and fore to the port. Well, this guy was exactly what we needed, he was an experienced painter who liked to get involved. The contractor's painters were local African labour so they were not used to working large structures. My new mate showed them how to better rig up their blast equipment, make sure they cleaned it out regularly etc. He blasted patches himself to show them what he would accept. He did the same with the paint spraying, explaining and demonstrating the best ways of doing it. I learned more about painting from him than I had in my previous 45 years. The painters and their boss were most appreciative of his methods.

    I used to run a fabshop for the client when we were at the development stages down there and my welding inspectors were also my welder trainers. I found this to be a very good way of working, there was a senior quality inspector above them who reviewed their work as well.

    Training, production and inspection should all be done within a team environment so that everyone knows what the required standards are. If more of these QC guys would move away from their manuals more often and do some hands-on assisting and training maybe they would benefit as well.
     
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