Weekender/Picnic Vessel, Power and/or Sailing Catamaran

I didn't check the price, but I'm sure it was (is) not cheap. All outboards these days are expensive !!

oops I did not notice your previous posting where you mention the price,...excuse me Fallguy
 
Why 2 of them (engines)?

Why would someone need 2 of them on a 'sailing boat'? I would be interested in a single engine installation in the center of the vessel, but with connectable steering capabilities that would allow it act in unison with the rudders when docking. I did this on the FP Louisane 37 cat and a early 9.9 Yamaha diesel outboard.
Weekender/Picnic Vessel, Power and/or Sailing Catamaran https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/weekender-picnic-vessel-power-and-or-sailing-catamaran.33751/page-4#post-873086

With proper prop selection one could likely get great speed with this diesel.

And being a common rail fuel injection engine one would have no problem with the engine being stored total flat up in its topsides storage box...no carbs to leak gas.

No need to search out methods to utilize the other (Austrian/German) diesel engine adaptation,...the Steyr engine I mentioned back on posting #50
 
Why 2 of them (engines)?

Why would someone need 2 of them on a 'sailing boat'? I would be interested in a single engine installation in the center of the vessel, but with connectable steering capabilities that would allow it act in unison with the rudders when docking. I did this on the FP Louisane 37 cat and a early 9.9 Yamaha diesel outboard.
Weekender/Picnic Vessel, Power and/or Sailing Catamaran https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/weekender-picnic-vessel-power-and-or-sailing-catamaran.33751/page-4#post-873086

With proper prop selection one could likely get great speed with this diesel.

And being a common rail fuel injection engine one would have no problem with the engine being stored total flat up in its topsides storage box...no carbs to leak gas.

I am building a powercat. I also had reservations about dual crankshaft and ultra new design. If the warranty matched the hype; perhaps I could see it. I could have gotten a 6 year warranty on my engines. Opted for 3 and money off.

But if you wanted a 70hp engine on the sailboat that weighs 350 pounds; I suppose..
 
Potential Rigs for this vessel

I've been reading a fair amount about these biplane (twin masted) vessels recently. It certainly looks like they might make good candidates for this weekender cat idea.

There are both free-standing versions and stayed versions. the free standing ones naturally are likel a bit more expensive and challenging to build. So serious considerations should be given to the more 'conventional' stayed versions. This one aboard Cactus Island likely deserves study.
cactus-island-45-x-28-cat-jpeg.158393


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cactus-island-2-jpg.158394


for simplicity the jibs might be left off.

Gerald then designed and built a radical 45 x 28 foot catamaran, Cactus Island, launched 2012. It weighs 10,000 lbs ready to sail and carries a biplane rig with a total of 900 square foot sail area (330 square foot in each main and 120 square foot in each jib). The sails are on 2 aluminium masts that are 46 foot long with 40.2 foot above the deck and 5.8 foot buried in the hulls. The cat is built in foam glass with some plywood. The accommodation is in a central pod with a double berth cabin forward the a dinette with seats (convert to berths either side of a central walkway) and a galley either side of the walkway befre the cockpit. The hulls have a loo and some berths and storage.

The rigs are of Gerald’s own design and are balestron style. He built the masts for approximately $7000 (for both) and they took about 8 months work. They are constructed from two 23 foot lengths of 150 mm diameter aluminium tube with 4.75 mm walls which were internally sleeved together to form a mast, to which he laminated divinycell foam up to the hounds, then tapered the foam from 20mm at base to nothing at the hounds. Then laminated carbon uni's (toray 6oz) at 12 layers up to a metre above the deck bearing tapering down to 1 layer at the hounds. This was consolidated with double bias glass, one layer after 6 layers of carbon then another after 12 layers, also one layer over foam before the carbon. All the laminating was done by hand (no vacuuming etc, all very low tech). Because the tubes were joined he decided to put spreaders at the join (for diamond wires) as the 46 foot tubes seemed quite floppy. In hindsight this was probably not the best way to go as the diamonds transfer all the loads below the spreaders so it bends at the lower half of the mast instead of from the top down as a full tapered carbon tube would. Despite this, the masts work well and appear strong, being only 40' above deck helps a lot in this respect. He has been out in 30 knots and hit by a few big gusts without any scary noises or abnormal bending happening. The masts weigh about 170 kg each.

The bearings are pvc pipe of around 10mm wall which were machined so the inner and outer bearings had about a 1 mm clearance. The inner bearings were then glued to the mast using a straight edge to align them. He made a conduit out of 3 layers of d/bias glass using some larger pvc pipe as a mould, the outer bearings were then glued to the conduit in situ on the mast which allowed the bearings to align. When cured the conduit was then removed and fitted to the boat knowing that the bearings were aligned. So, to do it this way you need to build the masts before fitting outer bearings to the boat. The bearings are 80mm high and I have fitted s/s grease nipples (3) around each set, Innox makes a grease which is suitable for use with plastics. They spin freely but the top bearings (which are more highly loaded) start to make noise when under load. Stainless steel shims at the top inners stopped this noise.

Beefing up deck and sole had the conduit pass through what would be mast bulkhead (if standard rig) which is quite substantial giving it plenty of support sideways. To support the mast forwards and at 45 deg he heavily glassed tapering timber ribs (internal only) on the outside (deck) and glassed heavily (uni's and d/b) about 750mm out from mast. Also the decks core is removed for around 500mm around mast and replace with ply. The main things to be aware of with beefing up decks and sole is that the major loads on freestanding rigs at deck level go sideways and forwards with smaller loads going aft and at sole level the loads go backwards and sideways with smaller loads going forward and there is bugger all compression load. There is a drain at the bottom of the conduit into a small bilge but it has never needed emptying, he thinks the small amounts just evaporate.

Gerald is very happy with his bi-plane rigged cat in all conditions after sailing her since 2012. No problems with the rig flopping around in any conditions. Her masts are round tubes so don’t give any drive at anchor or docking. Her Achilles heel is when the breeze is on the beam (or around 15 degrees either side) but this is compensated by her excellent close and broad reaching ability, her square running speed without use of a spinnaker, and her fine windward ability. Her cruisability was well proven during our 5,000 mile beat to Christmas Island and French Polynesia and downwind voyage back to Australia in 2016/17.
 
P D F. Pretty damn fine. "Her Achilles heel is when the breeze is on the beam". Would that be because the windward rig wind shadows the leeward rig? Just a thought for any future catamarans. Install masts on the hulls with sliding mast feet &/or UJs, to cant windward rig towards bow to bear away & leeward rig astern to point upwind. Almost selfsteering.
Sorry, but too much experience with the "perpetual luffer to windward" original "Windsurfer" with teak wishbone boom & baggy sail. It colours a chap's thinking, perpetually!!! :oops::(:eek: The boom had to be almost vertical to bear away. :mad:

Drop both windward sails & pole out the windward with a spinnaker or suitably cut Genoa from windward masthead, to fly ahead of lee rig. T'would make life interesting.
 
Perhaps those results are a result of the use of round tube mast.

From my number of readings yesterday. it appears as though the vessels making use of airfoil shaped, rotating biplane mast are fairly much better in that respect of beam reaching. Of course these rigs are quite a bit more expensive.
 
Yesterday I spent a good bit of time looking at this duel mast, biplane rig technology that has been developing up till this latest Chris White vessel 'Saphira', and that 'Ozone' vessel. Sure seems to have a LOT of possibilities to simplify things. In fact I think it might make a very good rig for my 'gamefishing under sail' vessel.


Multihull Structure Thoughts https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/multihull-structure-thoughts.62361/page-77#post-880303
Multihull Structure Thoughts https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/multihull-structure-thoughts.62361/page-77#post-880519
 
This subject got me to thinking about the Stiletto 30 cat that we sold a few of, and so loved for a weekender.

Then i ran across this vessel that looks to be so inventive that i thought i would try to preserve some photos of,....
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more photos,...
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I really like the “half scoop” at the stern, this would be very handy for a sport fishing oriented catamaran design, but the open bridge doesn’t offer any sort of shelter. Much prefer the design of the Thai cat presented at the beginning of this thread.
 
That Thai cat has rather squarish/boxy lines compared to some more modern designs,...but think of how easy that is to build with flat pre-fab composite panels or lt-weight wood construction,...think economy of construction.

economy build,...and especially in Thailand or similar
 
Just happened across this posting by Redreuben,...
Multihull Structure Thoughts

It's an old Kelsall design that sort of reminds me of the Stiletto 30 design,..



That central 'nacelle' mounted single engine and even the single rudder merits some considerations with respect to simplicity and cost to build.

If I recall properly Peter Wormwood also did a nice central saloon 35' design that had a centrally mounted outboard for power. And of course the Stiletto 30 had a centrally mounted single outboard.

economy of build
 
More on Construction,...a suggestion I had make about constructing a Pilgrim 40 type trawler
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=175507&postcount=109
Combine these flat panel methods promoted by Kelsall with the 'shoe' of the Solitary cat I mentioned above.
**************************************
Booklet Explaining KSS Boat Building Method - Kelsall Catamarans
I've picked out some high-lights to excerpt from that 'booklet'

KSS stands for Kelsall Swiftsure Sandwich.



A full size, flat mould table, usually of melamine covered chipboard, is the basis of the technique. Butt strap joins underneath, join the table surface sheets and trestles to support the table top. The first table was make in 1973. All structural parts start on the table, which allows ease of laminating and provides a smooth finish for one side. Vacuum Resin infusion has been adopted and refined to suit the table, as the standard laminating technique.

The Materials – PVC Foam, polyester or vinylester E-glass skins for the whole structure.
The basis – starting by making flat panels on a full size, simple, flat table.

The major time savings come from
* Working on a table, with a relatively small portion of the done on the boat.
* Picking up the finish from the table, for one side of all parts, plus edge treatment at the same time.
*Resin infusion which produces the full panel in one shot.

KSS has been applied to every size from 8ft to 100ft.

Resin infusion became a KSS standard 8 years ago. It is the “magic” which changes the nature of the whole process of boat building. The boat shop can be clean and smell free for most of the time.

For more than twenty years, we used vacuum bagging techniques, to make foam sandwich panels on the KSS table. The only incentive to change was the improvements resin infusion offered. A high quality panel in the least time, made neatly and cleanly, and with reliability. A panel, of any size, can be made by one person. This is not sales talk. We do it at every workshop. The last workshop group made three 32ft. panels, in four days of hands on instruction to people who had not done it before, with the first day spent in other preparation work.

While working with liquid resins, does it make more sense to work on boat shapes or to do 95% of the work on a flat table, from which a smooth finish to one side is free, letting vacuum pressure do the hard work, to achieve the best standards? Everything in KSS follows from there.

You might also go to his website and look under some of the specific headings. Here are two I might recommend:
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - Boat Designs
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - KSS Materials
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - Boat Designs

….and another reference
http://www.stm-boats.com/articles/L8...sion_Story.pdf

PS:
If you look thru some of that KSS information and links I just posted, it's hard not to see that this is the ideal manner in which to build the relatively big flat panels of our decks, our cabin sides, and our cabin roof for the new Pilgrim design.

And these 'pieces' can all be built on a big flat horizontal table that produces parts with a 'finished side' to them, and the glass lay-up can be varied from part to part (main deck different than cabin side, different from cabin roof).

Set up properly this would all go much faster than traditional hand lay-up, with fewer people, be a much cleaner operation, and produce a superior resin injected piece.

Derek has worked with PVC foams like this for years, and much prefers them for this process. That said, there are no set rules that the Pilgrim redesign could not utilize the same foam-cored panels for its superstructure. BUT, I also think that the newer resin-injected-ready polypropylene cores could also be utilized in place of his beloved foam.
If you look thru some of that KSS information and links I just posted, it's hard not to see that this is the ideal manner in which to build the relatively big flat panels of our decks, our cabin sides, and our cabin roof for the new Pilgrim design.

And these 'pieces' can all be built on a big flat horizontal table that produces parts with a 'finished side' to them, and the glass lay-up can be varied from part to part (main deck different than cabin side, different from cabin roof).

Set up properly this would all go much faster than traditional hand lay-up, with fewer people, be a much cleaner operation, and produce a superior resin injected piece.

Derek has worked with PVC foams like this for years, and much prefers them for this process. That said, there are no set rules that the Pilgrim redesign could not utilize the same foam-cored panels for its superstructure. BUT, I also think that the newer resin-injected-ready polypropylene cores could also be utilized in place of his beloved foam.

AH crap, this internet crap !
many of those links to Kelsell's pages are now missing. I wonder if there is some way to recover them ??
 
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