Wanting to build a stitch and glue gheenoe-like craft

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DentonDon, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    The downside of doing anything new is the development. I am sure many will be interested in what you find for cost and toxicity value. You may be giving more than you receive on the forum.

    I don't think you could make the boat you want with only three sheets. I just think we should make sure you don't need 5.

    It is good you have a similar boat to follow -it shows the ergonomics work ok. The reference boat only weighs 55lbs. I don't see yours being more than 10 lbs more without the battery. The reference says it's capacity is 950lbs but I think they are pushing that past reason. Did you see the electric canoe? Long, low, slender and efficient. I clicked through and found specs and a nice UK site all about electric propulsion. Interesting stuff.
     
  2. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    Well I am sure that I can make it work for 4 sheets with enough finagling and because I have some scrap pieces perfect for the job. The plans I posted due include the minimum need for construction but the extra scraps I have should be enough for the compartments.
    I also like the quick electric canoe but would prefer something a little larger which is why this plan kind of combines the 12'6" outboard with the quick electric.

    Also... I will be working on some experiments with titebond III fillets combined with the fibatape. I feel like the combination should be strong enough for what I'm going for. Also the inherent structure of the nesting design should make it pretty strong.

    Thanks again for your input!
     
  3. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    The quick electric canoe is quite a bit larger than your boat. It has quite a range but is not surprising given it's 24v and has 4 batteries. I think it doesn't have the optimal prop. It should easily cruise at hull speed but the numbers they give are lower. I noticed all the impressive range electric boats were long double-enders.

    I was hoping you would glue up some sample corners. The way they do stitch & glue is to wire, tack points, build a fillet on the inside, tape and glue over the fillet, radius the outside edge, tape and glue the outside edge. The fillet is made with glue filled with fine sawdust. I wonder how well tightbond fills?
     
  4. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Titebond III is a good adhesive but I've never heard of using it with fibatape nor for making fillets. It's not a gap filling adhesive, it demands well-fitted joints and will just soak into a filler if it is porous.

    Fibatape is great for dry-wall, but all it does is provide a matrix to hold the mud in place while it sets, being self-adhesive and not needing a prep coat of mud it goes on faster than paper tape, but it doesn't add much strength.

    If you want to avoid glass and epoxy fillets, I suggest you use wooden chine logs. I glue 5/8 or 3/4" square chine logs directly to the flat side panels (sheer planks) using Titebond III then bend them to shape and plane the logs ready for the ply bottom. More than 3/4" thick and they won't bend easily. You should use epoxy for gluing the bottom, Titebond III is not suited for joints exposed directly to water for extended periods.
     
  5. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    Ancient, I'm not sold on one way or another quite yet which is why I'll be doing some testing of various joints and forms of titebond III. I may end up using chine logs but I would still use titebond III on the outside because of what this project really is. I referenced ken Simpsons tape and glue II process earlier and intend to use it pending tests and might incorporate chine logs if needed. His method is tested and used by many builders like myself who want a cheap, portable boat that won't be in the water for more than a few hours at a time.

    I should have time to do tests this week and will post results soon after.
     
  6. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    My bad, most of the quick canoe pics I see lead me to believe that it's smaller when it's not. It's just slim looking.
     
  7. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    I am all for quality construction, but I am also all for innovation with a purpose. He is working to a $100 budget -for a decent 4 sheet nesting dingy for three that fits inside his car and apartment. If he pulls it off it will be quite an achievement.

    If tightbond won't make a fillet then some sort of chine log is the only solution and my question is can it still be cheaper than epoxy fiberglass? How do you value the extra hours? I suppose a guy with a table router would count it as recreation.

    As far as durability, his boat may last extra long because it is only in the water for say six hours at a time then spends months and years indoors. It's not the use, it's the storage that rots wood dingys.
     
  8. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Chine logs look as good as a perfectly finished fillet with less effort and cost. I use a finish quality blade in a skilsaw to rip the logs, the log requires no further prep for gluing and very little sanding for finishing.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  9. latestarter
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    latestarter Senior Member

    As you may know, I am building a double ended version of the motor canoe which is about 15' 8" long.
    I am using 4mm plywood which is very flexible and will have temporary and some permanent structures added to it to stiffen and strengthen it. As a result it is not suitable for a nesting system.
    I see Michael Storer uses duct tape on the canoe. You should try it on yours. You might need some ties but it could save a lot of work. The bigger the angle between the planks the better it works.
     
  10. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    I'm curious about your chine logs. Are they cutting at an angle to fill the angle where the planks connect, or is it still just flat pieces glued in place?

    It looks like I could pull off something similar to what you have pictured there if the chine logs provided adequate strength. Though I'm still wondering if I really need that much reinforcement with a nesting design with so much inherent structure...?
     
  11. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    The skin of that canoe was 3mm and the chine logs were 3/8" x 3/4". The chine logs were glued to the bottom and sheer planks while flat using titebond III. The 3/4" dimension was planed down due to the obtuse plank angles. My rule of thumb for chine log thickness is twice the skin thickness: with the skin added on that provides a gluing area x3 wider than the skin thickness which will be stronger than the ply.

    The building blog is here http://theancientkayaker.weebly.com/

    The canoe has bilge planks which are glued to the bottom ahd sheer planks. If you click on "SAILBOAT" at the top of the page you can see the build of a flat-bottomed boat like yours. I used 4mm skin and 3/4" square logs for that; I had trouble bending the planks and had to cut slits in the logs because the bend was sharp and the wood had knots. 3/4" x 5/8" square would have been a better choice for that boat but I was lazy and bought 1 x 1 dimensional lumber - poor stuff. Your boat is longer and not as beamy so you shouldn't have that problem if you have clean wood, but cutting slits is a good trick to know and in no way weakens the boat.
     
  12. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    Dang... I guess I'm floating away from the flat bottom design...
    Thinking of taking this and flaring out one end for a 1'6" transom...
    http://www.jemwatercraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=DKTour

    I'm thinking that a combination of the T&G II process and chine logs will do the trick...
     
  13. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    That is BEAUTIFUL ...
     
  14. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Don,

    They claim $220 plus the cost of plywood, what happened to that $100 budget?

    :D

    Are you still going to cut her in half to get her in and out of your car and apartment?

    wayne
     

  15. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    Well their quote includes marine grade ply, epoxy, and glass. I'm using none of that which is the only way to stay within budget. Also, she'll be cut in three sections and still be between 13 and 14 feet in length. I downloaded their free dk plans to have a proven plank design to work from.
    I need to finalize these plans soon though... Lol
     
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