Waller 1200 or Easy Sarah? Advice please.

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by JasonCatt, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    -
    - Hi Jason, I hope Sailhand comes back and gives the answer, but here some info already...

    - Forum member Richard Woods had an article about Flat Panel Construction in a South African Yachting Magazine, in May 1990.

    - Schionning ---> Arrow Series ---> all 100% flat panel construction ---> starting with 2 x a 12 m ---> Arrow 1200 ---> Arrow 1200 Sports

    - The Coastal Passage has an article about AU $ 21 K + 900 hours = a 30'plus Cat-1, made of flat panel ply.

    - AU $ 21 K (NZ $ ± 22 K ~ US $ ± 16 K ~ € ± 15 K) (realistic ?) + 900 hours (realistic ?) = a 30'+ Cat * see footnote below the P.P.S.

    P.S.

    - The Coastal Passage ---> Recent Issues Free Download Page ---> TCP #75 is almost gone there now . . :eek:

    - [​IMG] The Coastal Passage - 75th Edition - Nov. Dec. 2015-PDF-2 ---> Page 6 + 21 to 39 = incl. kinda plans.

    - If I've checked well, there's some more info about the ‘‘Cheap Cat’’ in the mentioned PDF pages, if I've missed some, please post a reference.

    P.P.S.

    - [​IMG] The Coastal Passage - 74th Edition - Sept. Oct. 2015-PDF-3 ---> Page 10 + 11 + 12 (in the Letters section, the below quote is from page 12)

    - ‘‘ . . . If you are serious about this the first thing you need to do is start looking for a second hand rig and sails etc. They may determine your design detail. . . ’’

    - [​IMG] The Coastal Passage - 37th Edition - July, Aug. 2009-PDF-4 ---> Page 29 = AU $ 21 K + 900 hours = a 30'+ Cat

    - ‘‘ . . . This boat was designed around the rig that I had bought from a wrecked boat for AU $ 800 (NZ $ ± 835 ~ US $ ± 608 ~ € ± 563) . . . ’’

    * My guess from the links 1 2 3 4 is that the rig and the outboard(s) are not included in the estimated AU $ 21 K (NZ $ ± 22 K ~ US $ ± 16 K ~ € ± 15 K) + 900 hours.

    - Boatdesign.net thread: CSC 30 Catamaran - The Coastal Passage
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  2. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I wouldn't worry too much about construction methods. Sure there is some time difference between methods but shell construction is only part of the game. So make the decision based on aesthetics and what makes you happy if you want a round bilge build a boat with a round bilge. These boat builds are huge projects you want to be happy with the end result.
     
  3. JasonCatt
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    JasonCatt Junior Member

    Thanks Reddreuben, you make it sound almost easy!
     
  4. JasonCatt
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    JasonCatt Junior Member

    Thanks Corley, you're absolutely right. I guess my lack of experience with strip planking methods has probably influenced my thoughts on which design I'm leaning towards. No doubt I will learn soon enough.
    I really need to speak to some other local NZ builders, perhaps cut my teeth helping them out...
     
  5. cookiesa
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    cookiesa Senior Member

    There will be many "new" things you learn building, I'd be tempted to go with the method that most appeals and learn the skills you need. A great way is to look for someone building in the same method you are considering and go help them out for a few days!

    Most builders would love to teach and appreciate the "boost" in progress in return for sharing!
     
  6. guzzis3
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: Brisbane

    guzzis3 Senior Member

    cookiesa: THAT is fantastic advice.

    As said above you can generalize that the hull is maybe 1/3 of the total build, and some of that will be common like painting, fairing joints etc. All the common methods in use today are still around for a reason. The ones that have fallen away have done so because they are either labor intensive, heavy, expensive or problematic.

    So definitely try to get some laboring with someone else's build, or several. Then you can make an informed choice.

    The other common recommendation is to build something small first. Even a dinghy/tender. Maybe several small boats in different methods to see what's what. These will NOT be a waste of time or money, the lessons are priceless..

    Mr Woods has several excellent articles on his website about chined vs round bilge, building methods etc. He is as I have said before remarkably agnostic about your options, he has designes which have been built with lar keel or dagger board but otherwise pretty much identical, and I think he's got designes that have been built round bilge and chined, and all sailed by him. He's also built several different boats, different methods etc. His articles are remarkably balanced and well worth a look.

    Again as I've said elsewhere resale is FAR lower for ply, and while you say you don't care you'll not care until you do care. Foam/glass/poly isn't that much dearer. 10% probably. Foam requires few if any stringers and frames. You don't need a kit, you can just build a table make your own panels up, store them aside (they are flat you know) then assemble once they are all done. Saves on rent and so forth.

    But if you build to the waterline in strip it won't be that much slower, and if you build in chined ply that will be fine aswell. All these options will be good, just do some research as suggested above.

    Oh and most of all don't believe anyone telling you this or that is the best ever. Everyone wants to sell you something. They either want your money or the satisfaction of seeing you buy into their ideology. All the choices are good, it's just that some are better ;)
     
  7. JasonCatt
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    JasonCatt Junior Member

    Thanks for all the info Angelique. I have already looked at most of the designs on the market around this size. The Arrow 1200 (like most from Schionning) is definitely a beautiful design, however, it's a little rakish for my tastes. I'm looking for a little more volume up front to accommodate the kids and partners when they come to stay. Plus, I'm just not a fan of Duflex as a method of construction. Call me crazy, but building a boat out of something that seems as porous and absorbent as cardboard just doesn't seem right to me. Each to their own I guess.

    The CSC30 is not at all what I'm looking for. I'm not even sure it qualifies as an actual design, given that there are no plans available to speak of. I do concede that there have been a few reasonable examples built but it's definitely not for me.

    My budget is around $160-180k, but this has to be spread over the course of the build - so that rules out the expensive kits that come all together in a couple of containers. Sailhand's flat panel multi chine kit that can be built to a faired hull in 3.5 weeks sounds crazy fast, so I thought I had perhaps missed something... otherwise, it's down to the Waller I think. Sailhand, perhaps you can elaborate?
     
  8. JasonCatt
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    JasonCatt Junior Member

    Thanks Cookiesa, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm happy and comfortable with ply as my medium. I'm hoping to head over to the Sunshine coast later this year to look at a build under way and perhaps lend a hand for a few days.
     
  9. JasonCatt
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    JasonCatt Junior Member

    Very true...
    I understand that resale is (or can be) potentially considerably lower for ply compared with other materials, however, this really is of no concern to me. It'll be a (admittedly expensive) labour of love that will give me hopefully a further decade of fun once the build is complete. It won't encroach on my retirement investments, and when I'm too old to use it I'll be gifting it to my son.
    Resale = $0, problem solved.

    Apart from loving to work with wood, I haven't found any plans for flat panel foam built cats that are similar to the Waller in terms of simplicity, overall cost, ease of build etc. I've spent quite a bit of time searching but perhaps I need to keep looking? Sailhand's comment on the previous page about a flat pack kit that can be built to faired and antifouled hull stage sounds fantastic...
    But, if there really is a better way to build a large volume, reasonably priced cruiser I haven't found it yet.
     
  10. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Good for you, I wonder how many people have built boats that are totally inappropriate for their needs and spent far more than was required chasing resale value. Better you approach it from the angle of building what you want.

    Have you checked out Kurt Hughes designs? The cylinder molded models give you pleasing hullshapes whilst keeping material costs under control. I know of a few people who have built/are building cylinder mold multihulls in NZ that I could connect you with for a chat.
     
  11. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    -

    [​IMG] 41' Alden gaff schooner [​IMG] - - But, John lost a foot . . :( - - Please take care Jason, during the whole build . . :idea:
     
  12. JasonCatt
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    JasonCatt Junior Member

    Good God! Well I have to take my hat off to him for staying the course for that long. I do love wood.... but I'm not sure if I'm quite at his level of commitment!

    I'm on a very strict timeline... of 6 years, haha. I want it done and in the water by the time I'm 55. He looked closer to 80!

    Bless him though, what a herculean effort.
     
  13. JasonCatt
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    JasonCatt Junior Member

    Thanks Corley,
    I'm going to do my best to avoid the usual pitfalls. Sure, my boat will possibly be a little less fair than others; perhaps I'll have non stick under my bridge deck and my interior may have the odd wavy surface or a bit of orange peel paint, but I'll be off over the horizon a good 20 years before the poor doctor in the video above!

    I have checked out Kurt's designs - one in particular is almost exactly what I'm looking for (although it is about 3 or 4 ft longer than I would have liked). Unfortunately though he hasn't finished the design yet. I've been waiting for six months to have a proper look, but no luck as yet. It's his update to his 45ft cruising cat:

    http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/45bdcat.html

    It's definitely a wonderful update to what was rather a staid old design - very handsome in my opinion.

    Apart from the fact that I can't order the plans as yet, the other reason it's not on my short list is that I've read a few comments on forums about his designs being more complicated than necessary in terms of construction. Is this something you have any knowledge of?

    I have read every one of Kurt's 90 odd pages of blog articles, and I admire the man's straight talking and somewhat abrasive manner. He's definitely a character!

    Re the local builders, I would be indebted to you if you could put me in touch with some here in NZ. I'll send you my contact details in a PM shortly, or feel free to send me a message.
    Cheers,
    Jason.
     
  14. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I looked through my address book and cant find them asked Kurt, will let you know. It was quite a big boat about a 50'er under construction, looked pretty impressive it was the second CM boat for the builder.
     

  15. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

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