Wall Street Gambling, Price Manipulation, etc

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by brian eiland, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 116, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

  2. Number4

    Number4 Previous Member

    200 Million Ounces of Paper Silver Traded in 1 Minute Friday During Cartel Silver Raid! February 18, 2013

    Over a 5 minute period from 10:32-10:37 AM Friday, a massive volume spike (approximately 40,000 contracts) coincided with silver’s waterfall to $29.75- a fairly common occurrence during major cartel silver raids.
    Astonishingly however, 2 minutes after silver marked it’s low at $29.75, approximately the same volume traded over the next minute- spiking silver .15 off it’s low.
    It appears that a major buyer stepped in and took on the cartel at exactly 10:39 am on Friday 2/15 as nearly 40% of the day’s volume traded over a single minute.

    To put this number in perspective, 200 million ounces is 26.2% of 2012′s world silver mine supply of 761 million ounces!

    http://www.silverdoctors.com/200-mi...in-1-minute-friday-during-cartel-silver-raid/
     
  3. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 5,067
    Likes: 216, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    I think you meant to say Fri 15 Feb

    Did you read some of those comments below on that referenced page?
    This one caught my eye:
    "I kinda think it is the commercials themselves, tripping the stops, cover some shorts, later in the day offering more shorts, but less than they covered. Gradually decreasing their short position without any rise in spot. They are clever rascals."

    And who are the 'commericals',....could that be the Wall street gang :rolleyes: ....that play oil the same way ;)

    Aren't they much of that same 'group' the American taxpayers bailed out a short time ago, and now they are up to same old games.
    These guys don't make much money in a 'steady-state' market. They need that volatility to make it on the ups and downs,.... lets gamble rather than just invest.

    Quoting again from that article I referenced above;
    "The Cheating isn`t even hidden anymore

    Literally the CFCT only has to pull up a trading Dom watch it for five minutes and watch all the flashing fake large orders that appear and disappear as price reacts to their presence to know that these markets are infested with manipulation termites. They obviously purposely look the other way, or avoid looking at all!

    OPEC points to a Manipulated Market
    Americans have it all wrong, you are not being held hostage by the middle east, or the cartels like OPEC, it is the Big Banks Cartel, let`s call them the Roulette Cartel that is holding the American and World consumer hostage.

    Even OPEC realizes this manipulation, and they have publicly stated many times it is the speculators that are determining the price of oil. But they use too kind of a word, because these are just a bunch of Vegas style Roulette players with deep pockets who unlike Roulette have no risk because while there is randomness with a slight edge to the casino in Las Vegas, the Oil Roulette table of the Wall street banks never have a losing quarter, shoot they very rarely have a losing day, and it is hard to ever lose when you’re the ones moving the market."
     
  4. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 5,067
    Likes: 216, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/all-things-boats-and-boating/fuel-prices-hurting-yet-8645-4.html#post615665
     
  5. Number4

    Number4 Previous Member

    Optiver pays $14m to settle oil futures manipulation claims

    Optiver, one of the world’s largest electronic market-makers, has been forced to pay $14m as part of a settlement with US regulators over charges that the Netherlands-based company manipulated oil futures contracts on the New York Mercantile Exchange in 2007.

    The case is a rare embarrassment in the world of “high-frequency” traders, which use computer algorithms to generate large numbers of orders in fractions of a second, or which use other automated trading methods to trade in and out of stocks, options and futures.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f1bec47c-8ad2-11e1-912d-00144feab49a.html#axzz2LHnPdYRh
     
  6. bntii
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 731
    Likes: 97, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 1324
    Location: MD

    bntii Senior Member

    I read it and don't agree with it.
    Fuel prices have nowhere to go but up.
    Remove futures trading and you might reduce (or increase) volatility, but you are not going to change the basic equation- oil reserves are dropping and demand is rising- prices will keep going up.


    "In considering the relationship of commodity futures markets and prices, this paper
    has tried to reconcile the divergence between popular and, roughly speaking, profes-
    sional opinion on the perceived effects of futures markets on the level of commodity
    price volatility. Along the way, a rough—but reasonably representative—synopsis of
    prevailing popular attitudes on futures markets was considered, and an outline of a
    formal model of futures markets and its implications for commodity price volatility
    were sketched. The heart of the analysis was drawn from the historical record on
    the establishment and prohibition of futures markets. Bringing an explicitly empirical
    approach to the question, this paper allows for a few positive conclusions. At a min-
    imum, there is no evidence for the claim that futures markets are associated with high-
    er commodity price volatility. Indeed, the results presented in this paper strongly
    suggest the opposite: futures markets were associated with, and most likely caused,
    lower commodity price volatility."
    http://www.cftc.gov/ucm/groups/public/@swaps/documents/file/plstudy_26_dsj.pdf
     
  7. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 5,067
    Likes: 216, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    I'm not sure you understand where I'm coming from. I DO NOT disagree with you that in the future oil prices can only go up. I agree on that point. And I am not preaching against a 'futures market' in general. But I did note this sentence in that paper you referenced, "What remains less certain is how the introduction of pure speculation into a futures market affects the theoretical results regarding price volatility."

    What I have a problem with is when these prices are MANIPULATED rather than following market forces. That is the basis of that article I referenced. There are institutions on Wall street that participate in this price manipulation,....and not only in oil. Many on Wall street feel they are beyond reproach,....too big to fail, or something like that.

    BTW, there are a couple of new 'sheriffs' in town,...here's one
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/16/1187608/-Sen-Warren-Strikes-Nerve-Terrified-Bankers-Howl-In-Response

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxhyUAWPmGw&feature=player_embedded#!
     
  8. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 5,067
    Likes: 216, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Wall Street, the Supercomputers, 60 Minutes Report

    It may surprise you to learn that most of the stock trades in the U.S. are no longer being made by human beings, but by robot computers capable of buying and selling thousands of different securities in the time it takes you to blink an eye.

    These supercomputers - which actually decide which stocks to buy and sell - are operating on highly secret instructions programmed into them by math wizards who may or may not know anything about the value of the companies that are being traded.

    It's known as "high frequency trading," a phenomenon that's swept over much of Wall Street in the past few years and played a supporting role in the mini market crash last spring that saw the Dow Jones Industrial Average plunge 600 points in 15 minutes.

    Most people outside of the industry know very little, if anything, about it. But the Securities and Exchange Commission and members of Congress have begun asking some tough questions about its usefulness, potential dangers, and suspicions that some people may be using computers to manipulate the market.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6945451n

    ...this is gambling...not investing
     
  9. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 116, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I read that 65 percent of the Trades on the London exchange are high speed and " have no social value"

    The European Union has just enacted a new trading tax to control market volatility.. This new tax is set at 0.1 percent for stocks and 0.01 percent for derivatives.

    High speed trades generate miniscule profits ....the tax will remove this profit and smooth the market .
    The move is controversial with politicians because high frequency trading massages GDP numbers upwards.. by employing The classic " this can of tuna is for trading not eating" routine .
    Massaged GDP figures are important to politicians jobs. LOOK ! THE ECONOMY GREW !!!

    The UK has not signed onto this Transaction Tax.
     
  10. Number4

    Number4 Previous Member

    http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9234564/Microwave_vies_with_fiber_for_high_frequency_trading

    In the world of high-frequency trading, where being ahead of the competition by a few milliseconds can mean profits worth millions of dollars, finance firms are increasingly looking to decades-old microwave technologies for a competitive edge.

    Such firms are finding that wireless microwave technology, despite being in use for more than half a century, can deliver data a few milliseconds faster than fiber-optic cable. As a result, the once-stagnant industry of microwave communications is finding itself in an "arms race" among vendors of new competitive offerings, said Mike Persico, CEO of financial exchange service provider Anova Technologies.

    "If you want to transport a little bit of data very fast, physics tells you that you have to go through air. Fiber is just not a good idea. It will slow you down," explained StA(c)phane Ty , co-founder of Quincy Data, which provides microwave services to financial firms.

    Ty was one of a number of speakers who discussed the increasing use of microwave technologies at the Quant Invest conference last week in New York.

    For financial services firms, getting some piece of competitive intelligence a few milliseconds faster than their competitors can be worth the cost of securing a faster link. Stock trades can take less than a millisecond to execute.

    Microwave technologies have been in use for point-to-point connections for decades by the military and by broadcast television stations. Point-to-point wireless microwave transmissions, which operate in the 1.0GHz to 30GHz part of the spectrum, require line of site, though signals can be repeated along the route. A good signal -- such as between two mountaintops -- can travel as much as 300 kilometers, or around 186 miles.

    Microwave use has declined in the past few decades as fiber-optics communications has been able to offer greater bandwidth. These days, the largest microwave link can offer only 150Mbps, though work is being done to develop gigabit microwave technologies.

    One advantage microwave still possesses, however, is speed of transmission. Electromagnetic waves travel faster through air than through glass. An electromagnetic wave, can travel at 300,000 kilometers (186,000 miles) per second in a vacuum, and nearly that quickly through air. Light, however, can only travel at about 200,000 kilometers per second in even the clearest glass.
     
  11. bntii
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 731
    Likes: 97, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 1324
    Location: MD

    bntii Senior Member

    Point taken Brian- I will review the article again and see if I can come back more to that issue.
    I think my buttons are pushed by the papers presentation of "gambling, roulette table, manipulation" etc. Price finding in a market seems often seems fraudulent or like gambling to participants who lack sufficient information.
    Foxes in the hen house- of course. Foxes being what they are I would expect no other outcome. The hen house is kept & we go after the foxes though..

    HFT- "Gambling not investing".....

    Hmmmm I don't know that I agree with that either

    General question- Is 'Day trading' in which securities are bought and sold many times during a day beneficial or destructive to market function?

    Why?
     
  12. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    I agree with Manie, Gonzo and Ad Hoc, boat design is about boat.
     
  13. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 116, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I have a client who purchases copper futures because his business is manufacturing copper cables. He must know the copper price for future delivery or he cant quote the price of future delivery copper cable.

    If you buy copper futures you are creating false demand and are perverting the system.

    Day trading is not investing, its is gambling. Traders claim that they identify the price by trading and as a result benefit the system

    This is dubious thinking. Simply review the past 20 years of market turbulence and boom and bust



    Tax short term trades, tax gasoline, tax cigarettes, tax booze, tax bullets and any other socially harmful products
     
  14. bntii
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 731
    Likes: 97, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 1324
    Location: MD

    bntii Senior Member

    Micheal- do you think that liquidity improves or deteriorates market function?

    This sounds like a very good example of the benefit of price finding in open markets, no?:

    "Simply review the past 20 years of market turbulence and boom and bust"

    Why not review hundreds of years of 'boom and bust'?

    This is what I am reviewing this morning as I consider a position in one of the AL refiners:
    http://www.platts.com/RSSFeedDetailedNews/RSSFeed/Metals/8159967
    Is such price finding a "perversion of the system"?


    Respectfully Dskira, I agree with Brian:

    The state of the economy and resource pricing has a direct influence on both pleasure boating and businesses such as mine which work in this industry.
    Market machinations directly influence my clients approach to boating and are discussed at the marina and I suppose here too..
     

  15. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 116, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The high frequency traders claim that they create liquidity.

    Before high frequency trading...20 years ago...did the market lack liquidity ?

    The topic is complex and beyond my limited intelligence. I can barely balance my checkbook.


    The professional say....

    "Mr Merrin argues that HFTs prey upon institutional investors when they make large trades, and cites research showing that a majority of asset managers and pension funds are sceptical about the liquidity advantages that high-frequency trading is supposed to bring. He does not accuse high-speed traders of doing anything illegal or immoral, but argues that their ability to trade ahead of long-term investors means that the markets benefit the few, not the many."

    http://www.economist.com/debate/days/view/816

    "It’s also unclear whether high-frequency trading lives up to its promise of increasing market liquidity. By all appearances, the most profitable traders actually reduced market liquidity rather than enhanced it"

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-25/high-frequency-trading-prospers-at-expense-of-everyone.html

    My view is that high frequency trading only benefits the financial industry
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.