Wagner Keel.

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I couldn't find any discussion about this.

Apparently only one vessel is using it presently (Jure Ae in the Marshall Islands) and it seems to be doing the job for them quite nicely.

I wonder if this could 'scale down' for non-commercial vessels that want a shallow draft?

Gory details in the very(!) in-depth technical pdf attached.

W Keel Juren Ae.jpg W Keel drawing.jpg
 

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I like the "fit and forget" nature of solidly welded parts, but, I have to ask, would not smaller active "roll-fin-stabalizers" work just as well, with less skin fiction resistance and drag? Just curious.
 
I wonder if this could 'scale down' for non-commercial vessels that want a shallow draft?
Matt Layden's chine runners are similar, though with less span and likely less effect, and placed further forward. Layden deliberately loads up the rudder, which is relatively much larger than on the vessels described in the pdf. He often has a rudder head as deep as the hull (not in the boat below, though; I don't know whether it is designed or inspired by Layden). That rudder head then provides some steering, in shallow draft mode, but not enough to take the lateral load of the rig. The vessel described in the pdf apparently is supposed to sail with shallow draft, so the rudder can't be that deep and those Wagner keels are much further back.

iu
 
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Delta Wing

Chinese sixth-generation fighter jets and Thomas Harrison Butler Yacht based on the empirical work of retired rear Admiral Turner

The importance of the sea for maritime navigation in the Mediterranean Sea

Let's look at the raked trailing edge and rudder of Thomas Harrison Butler's yacht.

From the perspective of induced drag, the temptation would be to redesign it.

Buuut the magic of this type of wing is:

1) to produce considerable lateral force, and—and here's the key—

2) to decisively shift Aft the Center of Pressure of the lift created by the vortex

A wing of this type achieves a stable equilibrium because by increasing the angle of attack (in this case Yaw/Leeway) the center of lateral pressure (the center of force) moves aft, placing itself in the longitudinal position of the yacht's center of gravity (Neutral equilibrium) and even aft of the center of gravity (Stable equilibrium)

These are the two characteristics of this type of wing:

1) generating significant lift at high angles of attack: Vortex Lift, and

2) shifting the Lift towards the rear to achieve Stable Equilibrium

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Vortex-Lift

If we want to further improve the ability to shift pressure aft, then we tilt the trailing edge, as seen in sixth-generation Chinese fighter jets and Thomas Harrison Butler's yacht.

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The trailing edge of the Turner-Burtler Delta Wing ...

... seems completely absurd when viewed from, say, 1979:

It creates a large vortex, which also rises, lowering the effective draft (e), and the induced drag is directly proportional to the square of the effective draft.

The confusion here is that the yacht wasn't obsessed with gaining a tenth of a knot upwind in a regatta in 1974, 1979, or 1989, but rather was sailing downwind in a real sea with Waves

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prof. Kensaku Nomoto
Osaka University

hydroDynamic CLR @ 6° AoA (Yaw/Leeway) ca. 40% LWL

When we talk about a yacht's Keel, we're talking about at least three things:

1) how much force (lateral force, Lift) it produces in relation to the angle of attack

2) how much Drag it takes to produce that force, and

3) Where that force is located in relation to the angle of attack.

I remember the project for a large schooner.

They spent a good amount of money on a wind tunnel and a lot of tests in a tank.

On the one hand, they rediscovered the very cheap and effective CE-Davidson estimation method using only paper and pencil.

On the other hand, they discovered the difference between a delta keel and a horizontal keel.

The importance of the sea for maritime navigation in the Mediterranean.

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Davidson_CE is incredibly cheap and surprisingly accurate:

+ Foresails x 1.7
+ next aft sail (MainSail on a sloop) x 1
+ next aft sail (mizzensail) x 0.5

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Curlew (Falmouth Quay Punt, 1905)

L: 8.6 m
Draft: 1.85 m (!)

BC09 – Falmouth Quay punt “Curlew” | National Maritime Museum Cornwall https://nmmc.co.uk/object/boats/falmouth-quay-punt-curlew/

...

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"Curlew", i don't know if this replica has the exact same hull; but I'm including this photograph to show the original "Curlew" rigging.

These sailboats (Falmouth Quay Punt) are forged (ca. 1860-1905) in the harsh forge, hammer and anvil, of the UK's Finisterre and its triathlon:

1) Upwind
2) Hove-to
3) Downwind
 
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What doesn't scale down is the mission profile. Smaller means non-cargo and probably non-commercial. The test report is a well done tank test but the focus is very narrow. It doesn't discuss any of the comparable solutions developed over the past 500 years. It also doesn't explain where the constraint that the appendages must entirely lie within the midship section box comes from. That isn't physical reality - that is a decision. If there is a box rule constraint for this ship - lets hear about it. Smaller ships can and do use bilge keels as fendering and grounding gear. I would also point out that the ship only cruises at 7 knots on auxiliary diesel. That is just plain silly. There is a thing called transport efficiency that takes into account how speed influences return on investment. If the seven knot figure is largely running in and out of ports, that's one thing, but if that's how she motors offshore between islands, it's not good.

Bluebird of Thorne designed about 1960 and still sailing.
11BBluebird-of-Thorne-1.jpg

Hoel 7.4 with twin pivoting boards
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As it's a working cargo ship it is designed for 7 kts minimum for schedule keeping when there is no/low wind. It actually sails faster and there's plenty of videos on YT of it under sail if you want to spend/waste some time 'researching'.

*****
AI Overview (for lulz!)

The SV Juren Ae (a low-carbon cargo ship) has a designed service speed of about 12 knots under sail, reaching around 7 knots with its auxiliary diesel engine, and uses a battery system for low-speed electric maneuvers, offering flexibility for sustainable transport, though actual speeds vary with conditions.
Speed Details
  • Under Sail: Aims for ~12 knots in favorable winds, demonstrating strong wind propulsion.
  • Engine-Powered: Achieves around 7 knots using its diesel engine as a backup, ensuring operation in low wind.
  • Hybrid System: Surplus wind energy charges batteries, powering the electric drive for slow speeds and docking, reducing reliance on diesel.
Performance Examples
  • During its delivery, it reportedly sailed at about 10 knots with only 15 knots of wind from the side, showcasing good performance.
Key takeaway: Juren Ae is designed for efficient, low-emission transport, utilizing wind as its primary power source with diesel and electric backup, making 12 knots a realistic goal under ideal sailing conditions.
*****

As a side note the first ship with the Indosail rig - which didn't have a Wagner keel so we are now officially drifting off topic - was accused of cheating in a tall ship regatta because it was so much faster than expected. :)

There's a thread on the Indosail here -> Indosail project, sail assisted freighter series https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/indosail-project-sail-assisted-freighter-series.62383/
 

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I couldn't find any discussion about this.
...
I wonder if this could 'scale down' for non-commercial vessels that want a shallow draft?
https://scontent.fsyd14-1.fna.fbcdn...NSFqrEqVjmDICDhv7ay3UEBGByLYrJsLQ&oe=695BBA46

It has been tried and discussed here before, but not under this name: Anti Vortex Panels https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/anti-vortex-panels.22688/

Scaling down is certainly possible as Kohler shows, but owners of his cats had mixed reviews. There's also the problem of hull shape (the wings must not overhang) and righting moment, the draft advantage could turn out to not be very much. Yachts have the whole moving appendages game figured out already, you can choose your flavor.

I couldn't find any actual performance reviews for the Juren Ae, I can't tell how well the delta keels work there. This means I have no ideea of how effective they are at preventing leeway in different conditions.
They certainly do some work, it's not hogwash, but the conditions matter. With its 500sqm of sail and 800t full displacement the Juren Ae is a very underpowered vessel, I wonder what those "favorable winds" are to achieve 12kn. Her commercial speed under sail is certainly significantly lower, and while this doesn't matter for her tramp operation profile, it does matter to us, because you can't put 20m2 of delta bilge keel on a 12m long boat even if both will have a similar 6kn cruising speed.
 
It has been tried and discussed here before, but not under this name: Anti Vortex Panels https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/anti-vortex-panels.22688/

Scaling down is certainly possible as Kohler shows, but owners of his cats had mixed reviews. There's also the problem of hull shape (the wings must not overhang) and righting moment, the draft advantage could turn out to not be very much. Yachts have the whole moving appendages game figured out already, you can choose your flavor.

I couldn't find any actual performance reviews for the Juren Ae, I can't tell how well the delta keels work there. This means I have no ideea of how effective they are at preventing leeway in different conditions.
They certainly do some work, it's not hogwash, but the conditions matter. With its 500sqm of sail and 800t full displacement the Juren Ae is a very underpowered vessel, I wonder what those "favorable winds" are to achieve 12kn. Her commercial speed under sail is certainly significantly lower, and while this doesn't matter for her tramp operation profile, it does matter to us, because you can't put 20m2 of delta bilge keel on a 12m long boat even if both will have a similar 6kn cruising speed.

Awesome! Thanks.
 
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Yaw axis: ships and planes

Ships (1)
Planes/Aircraft (2)

How is it possible that even an aeronautical engineer shrugs: the modern yacht is completely unstable on the yaw axis, what can you do?

How is this possible?

After reflecting and listening to others, the following emerges:

Literature needs to be believable; reality doesn't need to be believable. It can be incredible and mind-blowing. The power of reality.

Another way to see it: the natural, biological inclination to justify the Dominant ape. And the inertial reality, the power of reality that doesn't need to be believable like literature, is a form of dominant ape.

And the joke doesn't end there

It's also unstable on the Pitch axis.

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- well, but naval architects at least understand the Roll axis.

Nor do they

Because they confuse wind with the sea

See the stability index (STIX) of the perplexing European regulations, developed by none other than the Supreme Pontiff, van Oossanen.

https://oossanen.nl/

---

"Such a vessel will be able to carry plenty of Sail, will be very stiff under canvas (...) [but] is liable to capsize"

Scott Russell, On the Rolling of Ship, 1863


8 tons dinghy

Static stability

hydroStatic transversal Stability ... is the ability to withstand sail

"stability under canvas" (Scott Russell)

It's ridiculous to say that a sailboat that can hoist 100 square meters of sail is "ocean-going" and one that hoists 20 square meters is "coastal"

Small sailboats/yachts (and small at sea is anything under 30 tons) capsize in waves

Giant Yachts are capsized by the wind

It is clear that European regulations are designed to organize a catalog by size, like the sizes of underwear and t-shirts.

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STIX (Stability Index)

What is this?

Well, it's an expensive religious ritual performed by priests or druids to cloak in a veneer of respectability the colossal nonsense of saying: "My sailboat is bigger than yours."

STIX is a spherical joke, no matter how you look at it.

Let's create different Categories of short men... by measuring their height.

If you want to create different categories of short men, you'll have to use hair color or foot odor as criteria.

Measuring the length (LWL) of objectively small sailboats, 1-8 tons, is ridiculous.

A large yacht is (as Americans know) a yacht of > 30 tons.
 
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Wow. Just getting caught up here. We had a nice, civil discussion of STIX back when it first came out that was started by one of our best members from way back when. I seem to remember a good deal of reservations and couched wording around what it actually did, whether it would be used as intended by professionals, whether it would actually succeed at anything, whether the salespersons and the public would have a false sense of what the rating system was, and why you would name it after a waterfront bar in St Croix that was owned by a dog (The signature drink was the Cruzan Confusion, which might be relevant - I don't know.)

Sailing boats' Stability, STIX and Old Ratios https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/sailing-boats-stability-stix-and-old-ratios.13569/
 
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