A maximalist outboard cruiser, why not?

I have read the Pocket Cruiser & Option One threads and while interesting they do not address my needs. I am well able to purchase a 50' to 60' foot diesel yacht and my wife and I yearly charter bareboat in this size range, so we are familiar with the skills needed to safely operate such vessels. We are now at the time of our lives when we can get away for several month long cruises each year and could make use of our own boat. But we are not really willing to take on what we consider the negatives of ownership of a traditional cruiser. By this we refer to the following: high insurance costs, high mooring/dock-age costs, high maintenance costs and most importantly, small cruising range. We think that a trailerable outboard cruiser will avoid most of those negatives by allowing us to dry store the boat when not in use and to relocate it from region to region as we cruise.

Of course, limiting the size of boat to "trailerable" made the boat too small for us for long trips. We are both unwilling to give up most of the comforts we are used to in our larger boat experiences such as hydronic heat, good a/c, good electronic suite, sizable freezer, comfortable seating etc. If we limit the boat to two people's needs only with no "convertible dinette" and use the best of modern tech we still end up with a too small boat if we are limited to an 8'6" beam and contemporary L/B ratios. So why not just pay the yearly state permit for an oversize load? This means that up to a 10' beam I do not need an escort car and need only tie on a sign reading "oversize" across the stern. There are also some travel restrictions regarding cities and rush hours that are little trouble.

This boat will not be hauled down to the local ramp every weekend, instead I plan to only launch her a few times a year for long cruises and will be ideally dry stored at the Marina. The road trips will be when relocating from Florida to Maine, or from Baja to the PNW, for instance. Thus I would feel comfortable with a 9'6" beam which will have a large effect on the livability of any interior by increasing the volume.

If we are going to have a permitted oversize load for width, why be limited to 65' in length? Now I can have a 25' F350 tow vehicle and still have room for a boat up to 40' with the motors on a bracket and still be manageable on the road. Note that the F350 can tow up to 12500lbs so allowing 2000lbs for a good 3 axle aluminum trailer we end up with a maximum of 10000lbs dry weight for the boat.

We are looking for a semi-displacement hull with a good load carrying ability an an easy motion in rough seas since we plan to use this boat to continue our Inland Passage explorations north to Alaska. A "fast cruise" of 15kts to 20kts with a "slow cruise" of 8 to 10 kts for long range would work for us. I see no reason not to use a L/B ratio of 4 or even a bit more.

I expect this will take a custom hull as it is a pretty narrow design brief and am prepared for that expense as well as the necessary design/NA costs as well. Once I have a design in hand I can begin shopping the yards for bids. Any suggestions, comments, questions? We have been thinking and planning this for a while and have a lot more worked out than I have mentioned here.

Thank You in advance, Michael & Beth

 

To continue with our ideas and thoughts about this project, I feel it should be possible to have an all-gasoline boat with all electric systems. The newer Honda 3.5kw gas gensets are designed to be paired so 7kw is possible at a reasonable cost. The 2000 series is also very popular, but is not electric start. Webasto makes a gasoline truck heater that can easily provide hydronic heat as well as hot water through a heat exchanger. The new E-tec 75 and 90 hp engines have 136amp alternators. With good component selection and power management we ought to be able to have a quiet boat with no genset usage after dinner as long as we aren't running the a/c.

We would want about 200 to 250 gal of fuel with one tank being of 50 to 75 gallons. I don't want to store the crappy fuel we get these days and will only fill the big tanks when I know we will need the range. 200 gals of water would be needed for long trips unless a small watermaker can be found. a 10 to 15 gal hot water tank is enough for dishes and a quick shower. a single freshwater flush toilet with purification system is all that is needed and a 30 gal. blackwater tank is enough, the same with grey water.

A V-berth is out of the question, separate bunks will give the most restful sleep in all conditions. I am leaning towards sticking the shower up in the bow with the head aft off the salon. It, the shower, is a seldom used space that can take advantage of the pointy end of the boat. it would also keep weight out of there too. Ground tackle will be substantial with sufficient chain and rope or cable rode carried on deck in a horizontal reel on the forward face of the house.

As much of the mechanical systems as possible will be installed in the aft cabin, a small cuddy between the cockpit and the swim platform/motor bracket. The a/c, the heater, the inverter/charger, the waste system, the gensets etc could all be in here and vented or drained overboard as necessary. this will also keep the noise away from the living areas of the boat. A Systems Room if not an Engine Room.

What will this thing look like? Well we are traditionalists and would like it to look like a boat and not a spaceship or a clorox bottle. We look to Ed Monk, William Garden, and others for our inspiration. We like the Caledon 25 & 27 the best of all the boats we have seen lately and PNW or DE styling is very pleasing to the eye. Simple painted interior finishes with wood trim will help lower costs. Construction method and material? I am open to suggestions although I suspect that cold molded wood will get a close look.

We are planning to start construction in about 12 months.

 

I knew someone would turn up......

A few months ago a client asked about almost the same boat...35' by 9' trailerable maxi-outboarder. This one intended for twin E-tech 50-60 HP. One of his requirements was for a walk-around double aft, kids cabin forward.

The clunky looking version was the first, then the rum-runner version, then the trawler. 15-17 knots cruise was the requirement but systems and equipment/tankage was much lighter than all the stuff you are looking to load on a small hull.

 

Interesting sketches Tad. Not sure which is most worthy of refining though. I thought Westfield's priorities were interesting. I wonder whether the desired weight limit is realistic though. That is especially so in light of all the amenities wanted in a 40 foot boat capable of the performance desired.

 

Interesting ideas, Tad. We would prefer a more traditional layout with a focs'l forward followed by the hanging lockers, the bunks and then the helm. I suppose what I have in mind is a sort of sedan cruiser with a tiny aft cabin.
I agree that it may be impossible to keep the weight below the 10k limit, that is what happens when dreams meet reality! We will have to see how things work out. The tankage listed above was more a goal than a requirement. It may depend upon the mpg of the engines and upon our own water conservation! Really we just want to have a comfortable weekender with the capability of occasional longer trips. Realistically, most times we will never be more than 3 nights from a market, marina or resturant, but we will be taking 2 to 4 week trips so need a certain amout of storage. 75% of my wife's showers will be ashore I am sure although I will probably have the opposite ratio. All our drinking/cooking water will be bottled and carried aboard.
We want a cockpit for the living space as well as for water and dock access and a hull extension/swimstep/motor mount would be useful for tender access. Side doors would be helpful for a center cockpit.
I like the rumrunner version, although the center cockpit looks a bit too tall for my eye. How far above waterline is the sole? I would want the overall look to be lower with the cabin sole to be as low as possible. It is tempting to raise the floor of the helm for stowage/tankage but it is hard to keep the porportions right.
Keep in mind that this is just for two people, we will not be taking overnight guests. Everything can be optimised for that use with the exception of seating 4 around the table in the cockpit. We do think that space is the greatest luxury, perhaps the salon area can be full width with no side decks? I have some ideas about foredeck access and line handling that would make this feasable. Cleats for springlines can be accessable from the cockpit and helm doors/windows.

 

Naval Architects always want to create boats with "superior" performance. On the other hand owners want amenities and usually take whatever performance there is. Or the owner's adjust the performance to suit their wallet.

I recall Bob Harris telling me about how hard he worked for years to get the HerShine boats cruising at 20+ knots. The boats sold well because they were reasonably fast for the time. But after the first couple of cruises everyone ran at 12-14 knots. It was far more comfortable and burned about 1/3 the fuel. The deep-vee hull and monster engines were bought strictly for bragging rights, not actual use.

Can a 40' by 9' hull be built at 10,000 pounds? Yes, barely....there will not be much in it. Forget the generators and AC system, hot water tank, batteries, leave half the fuel and 2/3ds the water behind, black and grey water tankage of about 5 gallons each could work....etc. Frankly...rather than building a boat aimed at occasional long trips, why not build it around the actual weekend use and make do on any long trips that happen?

The cockpit sole must be 6-8" above waterline to be self-draining. The open sided mid cockpit is light, it can be enclosed with weather curtains but this means it's subject to flooding and must be treated as an outside area.

 

Michael & Beth,

Tad has some good points. Given your desires, your ideal cruiser might be more realistic in the 12,000 - 14, 000 lb range. Since you've indicated you aren't too stressed financially, you might consider a larger tow vehicle. An F350 dual wheel can tow 15,000 lbs on a hitch, 18,800 with a 5th wheel. An F450 will tow 16,000 lbs on a hitch, 24,000 lbs on a 5th wheel. International Harvester makes "pickups" with even higher tow ratings.

If your long haul trips will be infrequent, you might consider commercial hauling. The most cost efficient are "Hot shots", heavy duty pickups used to haul hitch and/or 5th wheel trailers with loads that are mostly bulk rather than maximum weight. The concept started, as far as I know, about 15-20 years ago, as truckers began to realize that a large portion of over the road loads were well under the 40,000 - 80,000 lb capacity of the big semi rigs. Rates are lower with these lighter, more fuel efficient rigs.

The things you will want for real comfort will add weight. Focusing on a way to haul the extra weight may enable you to build a boat more suited to your needs.

Wish I could do what you're planning. Good luck!

 

I wonder if the weight issue is not a bit overblown. The hull and deck weights I cannot comment upon as I am not a NA. However, The reason we want a 37 footer not a 27 footer is not to stuff more equipment onboard, but to have more room between the equipment ie. living space. And air is pretty light....
The info about the commercial truckers was very helpful. Since the moves would be infrequent it does make some sense to use a service for this. Why buy the bigger truck when I only need it once a year and for shorter relocations like from an expensive marina to a cheaper marina I could use a 1/2 ton to haul the empty trailer. The boat would be moved on the water.

 

The initial comments about weight were based on a 40 foot boat and your list of amenities to be in the boat. In that case, your wish for a 10,000 lb weight on the trailer were thought to be unrealistic. As you change both size and accommodation demands, the weight target becomes more attainable but is still problematic, in my view. It is almost always the case that the final design is a moving target as wishes and attainability meet and influence each other.

Any designer or builder will tell you that weight of the finished boat is almost always an issue. All the more so if it is to be a trailerable boat. There are many slugs sitting in marinas because weight and balance were not given due attention.

 

I expect to have to fight the battle agaisnt excess weight constantly during the design and construction phase. After that, the chips will just have to fall where they may. When giving my list of amenities I was giving a bit of a wishlist. I would hope that during the conversations with the Designer/NA we could both come to some understanding about those things that are needed and those that are wanted. Tankage requirements can be determined by range and mpg calculations and can probably be halved from my initial wish. I think that what we really want is a boat like a Caledon 27 with that sort of equipment but in a 37ish foot length with about a foot more beam. This should give the elbow room we desire to avoid the feeling of "camping" on the water. If that means that we need to build a 13k lbs boat than so be it, It is still trailerable at that size so no problem.

While we have been perusing this idea for a while, we have not discussed it with others. This means that everything is open for discussion and my thoughts indicated more of a starting point for conversation rather than a list of demands. I refer to my guesstimated weight on the trailer as an example of this.

 

Westfield,

This thread is music to my ears right now. From what I gather, you have the requisite experience for what you're planning (a fair bit more than my own, I must say). You know what you want to do with it, what features you need, what style you like, etc. You seem to want a large, open, relatively simple boat. You've said you want length/beam of 4 or more- exactly how I'd expect an NA to try to steer you if starting from scratch. I think you're on to something here!

I do think that a 10,000 lb weight target is optimistic, but achievable if you can keep the superfluous gear to a minimum and the construction methods light and efficient. In Ontario you would need a trucker's licence (Class A) to tow such a craft (you may have a similar requirement down there), although it could be done with a normal 350/450 super-duty pickup. Such a light, voluminous boat could have a quick and jerky motion in a seaway, though; water ballast might be worth considering (fill tanks when slow in rough seas, empty them to go fast or trailer?).

Two design starting points I might suggest would be:
- The Jersey Shore Sea Bright skiff (a form that began evolving in the late 19th century, characterized by a relatively flat underside with garboards twisted to form a box keel near the stern). Many of the best '30s rumrunners were derivatives of this form.
- A power derivative of a traditional sharpie form.

Looking forward to see how this shapes up

 

Thanks, I looked into the Groverbuilt skiff but they max out at 29 feet, not much different from the rest of the pocket cruisers and we need something bigger. I do like the looks though.
Not sure that a sharpie is best suited for this, aren't they flat bottomed? Or just the keel area? I think of them as being thin water sailors mostly.

 

I was thinking more in terms of general hull shape families than specific designs... Gerr's "DR Northwest Cruiser" comes to mind as an example of the "sea bright" type in a larger size, the general form seems to scale well.
Some of the more traditional sharpies are flatbottomed, but there are a number of other variants on the idea- the Roslyn sharpie, the "presto" boat- that, even if they aren't what you're looking for, can at least offer some insight into design directions and features that could be beneficial in your case.

 

Michael and Beth,

The more you communicate, the more practical your concept sounds. As Matt said, you have a good idea of what you want. You've started to prioritize, and you recognize that there will need to be many decisions and compromises along the way. You've shared your idea and asked for opinions, and you've shown a willingness to consider and discuss those that aren't in agreement with your own. With that combination of desire, open mindedness, and knowledge you have a good chance of getting most, if not all, of what's important to you.

While I still think your weight goal is optimistic, I don't think it's out of the ballpark. I did a very rough scaleup of the Caledon 27 to about 38-40', with a 1' wider beam. Keeping the simplicity of the design and allowing for some extra weight for the goodies you've mentioned and implied, I came up with a minimum of 11,000-12,000 lbs and a maximum of 13,000-14,000 lbs. Again, I'm not a designer or NA, so this is very rough, but I believe I've been very conservative, meaning you should have a good shot at staying around 12,000 lbs, maybe a bit less. I agree that such a light boat will pose some design challenges in rough water handling. Water ballast is an example of non-traditional thinking that would improve rough water performance while retaining reasonable fuel economy at cruising speeds.

I do like your concept. After many years afloat, with many nights anchored in remote quiet coves, I've come to a similar conclusion that the greatest luxury aboard is space. A few top quality amenities in a well designed spacious layout will, IMHO, be more luxurious than a box crammed full of furnishings and appliances, no matter how high tech. Your goal is reasonable, and will give the added benefit of allowing transport to new cruising grounds without the wear and extended time of a long voyage. On the other hand, your vessel should be comfortable enough for a long coastal voyage should you choose.

Hopefully, your evaluation of the input here will enhance your vision and inspire more creativity. I'm looking forward to the day you post photos of the finished cruiser.

 

With all due respect....weight is the crux of all successful boat design. As Tom stated above, bad guesstimates of weights and centers are the reason for all the failures tied in your marina. The correct combination of weight and bottom area/shape is key to creating a decent boat. This can only be done if the designer has all the weights in hand before starting on the hull, and if the builder and owner stick to these weights. They never do....so the designer must build some extra volume /area into the hull, but it's only a guess and usually inadequate.

With very tight control the prototype Hinckley Picnic Boat (36' by 10') came out at 10,200 pounds. The bottom was Airex cored and topsides with Divinycell or Klegecell, e-glass/Kevlar layup, 315 HP Yanmar, TD 5050 gear, and Hamilton 291 jet. About 70 gallons of fuel (1/2 load), no water, very little interior. Yes the basic structure can be built lighter and more expensively. The current versions of the same boat use a carbon layup and weigh about 11,600 pounds. I wonder where that extra weight comes from?