Voodoo & Hoot: why not foils??

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    I think both these boats are great looking ,sexy small boats but I'm amazed with the fact that neither of these boats is offering foils as even an optional part of their package. When you consider the revolution in sailing begun by the Moth foiler it's even more perplexing since instead of embracing the newest in technology these boats pretty much do the same thing thats been done in Australia for years.The Hoot is advanced in using a camber induced sail(designed by a famous windsurfer rig designer) and both boats used very advanced, and from what I can tell, very well done construction.
    In looking at the boats for whether or not foils would suit them I found some interesting stuff:
    -------------------
    Hoot-- http://www.gohoot.com/
    -To foil upwind as well as off the wind the boat needs to have a "wing loading"(weight/SA) of around 2.53 lb.s per sq.ft.. The Hoot could do this with a 122lb. crew; to do it with a 175lb. crew would require 125 sq. ft. of SA as opposed to the current 107.76 . Can't tell about pitch stability...
    --------------
    Voodoo Skiff-( http://www.voodooskiff.com ) The site publishes the weight of the boat at 176lb.'s. IF that is the all up weight then this boat is ready to fly NOW!. With a 175 lb. crew the boat has a weight/SA ratio of 2.54 lb.'s per sq. ft.
    The only problem I can identify without studying it a lot further is the relatively far aft position of the mast which apprears that it would reduce the distance from the mainfoil to the rudder foil to a marginal amount for good pitch stability.
    ---------------
    I'd sure be interested in hearing from anyone connected with either boat regarding their attitude about hydrofoils...
     
  2. the_sphincter
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    the_sphincter *

    Why are you so into the foils? Yeah, the Moth is a really cool boat, but just because foils are cool, doesn't mean that every boat should have them. I think the fact that a non-foiling moth came in something like 4th at the moth worlds (not sure if it was worlds, but major regatta) says something about them. Not necessarily faster. Then take the Hoot, really cool boat, looks like alot of fun. 122 lb crew? are you kidding me? How many people are 122 lbs? Maybe if it was for juniors only. Voodoo looks really cool, and I'm pretty sure that it would beat a foiling moth in just about every wind condition.

    Yeah, foils are cool, but that doesn't mean every new boat out there should come with them. It adds an extra complication with rigging, launching, and repairs. It also makes it more difficult to sail. I've never sailed the Voodoo, but I'm pretty sure it's a handful, with a trap and chute for one person. I'm not sure that it would go any faster with foils.

    But if you must know the answer, sign up for an account on Sailinganarchy.com, and you can ask the designers/builders yourself... oh wait... doug lord? nevermind.
     
  3. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    "I'm pretty sure that it would beat a foiling moth in just about every wind condition."

    Having raced a couple of times against foilers on what is still accepted as the fastest non-foil singlehanded dinghy upwind (Canoe; faster upwind that RS700 and MPS according to good sources) I can't see any non-foil singlehanded dinghy holding a foiler Moth upwind in the right conditions for the foiler.

    Even if the Voodoo manages to go faster than the MPS and 700 and Canoe, there's still a big gap before it can catch a Moth when the foiler is working.

    When it's not, different story.

    Actually one of the top Mothies (CD on HD) cruised through the bay today; surprisingly I got the feeling he may not have been as quick against the windsurfers (Mistrals) as I would have imagined, but he's still learning foils and is loving them; very tactical as they don't stop when tacking and gybing like a conventional Moth.

    With only about 7 foilers even in the heart of foiler land (Australian Moth nationals) you can see why the Voodoo and Hoot guys aren't excited about sales potential, though.
     
  4. gggGuest
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    gggGuest ...

    They'd be crazy to. They're already going to require sailing skills way beyond the typical US sailor. Its going to be a hard job shipping enough to recover the development costs as it is. Add foils and you multiply the development costs by three and divide the potential market by five. Then added to that if you give an option you divide your class in two halving the chance of building a fleet. Its hard enough building a Moth Class in AUS and the UK where thre's a reservoir of talented sailors. Isn't even happening in NZ from what I can see. Found a new foiler class in the US? Not a hope!
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    foilers

    Jim, I think you're wrong. There are all kinds of innovations in foil system design that would radically simplify the use of foils from the Moth example: retractable foils is a big start as are new control systems that may make handling rough water much simpler and foils that allow even earlier takeoffs than the Moth-early takeoff NOT MAX SPEED is the key, in my opinion. Foiling in winds of 5-10 knts will make the biggest impact here-relative speed will still be great but ,again the key is getting up early. In addition such things as buoyancy pods to make learning easier, shiftable level takeoff foil systems and maybe sliding bench seats all have potential to make sailing high performance boats easier and fun for more people. But a huge potential in modern "Peoples Foiler" foiling is the design of foilers that can be intentionally JUMPED and safely re-enter . This stuff is going to happen-it's just a question of time, money and who has the vision to run with it first.
    The lack of foresight in what is possible with these boats will haunt these guys for a
    long time because doing the same old same old just isn't going to cut it.Launching a "new" skiff era boat or boats at a time in history like this-the dawn of the monofoiler- with no homage paid to foiling whatsoever is a HUGE marketing mistake.
    Americans would jump on a simple beach sailable foiler with well sorted easy to use systems-I'm betting on it.
     
  6. Nobody
    Joined: Mar 2005
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    Nobody Junior Member

    Doug,

    I think you are wrong. Americians will not jump on a foiler in any great numbers for a long while. Companies have to respond to demand and there is not widespread demand for a foiler. Foilers require by definition a lot of learning. There is always swimming involved in the learning. The slow takeup of just about every advanced skiff class and the staid conservative dinghy racing in the US shows that learning is not going to happen.

    Think about the practically of a foiler. Have you seen the foils on a moth in the flesh? They are perfectly smooth and ground to very close tolerances. A set of foils cost about $3000. Go then and look at just about every dinghy anywhere else. The CB and rudder will likley have small scrapes on the bottom from impact with the ramp. On a normal boat this is a little slow but not too bad. At the end of every season you have to do a bit of work. If a foiler had a slight impact with the ramp the foils need major work before the boat can be used again. Foilers are fast but they are not practical for the vast majority of ailors.

    If you think it is going to revolutionise the way we sail put up some money and develop a boat. Don't put down other peoples efforts to deliver new and different boats to the market. Your rantings are becoming obsessive.

    Nobody
     
  7. SuperPiper
    Joined: Jan 2003
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    SuperPiper Men With Little Boats . .

    Just An Observation

    The video of Sebastien Josse (VO70 skipper) foiling on a Moth showed him having more difficulty with the narrow hulled boat in the water than while foiling. Once Seb had lift-off, the boat seemed more stable and self-regulating. The narrow hulled platform may be what is causing the difficulty. Perhaps the recreational foiler needs to be more stable in the water than the new generation Moth. Bouyancy pods may be a good alternative. Foiling a catamaran may be what the general public would embrace.
     
  8. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    That's probably selective shots. Quite a few very competent Moth sailors have had quite a bit of trouble adapting to foils.
     
  9. usa2
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    usa2 Senior Member

    i have heard that the boats are more stable in relation to rolling while on foils, but their pitching motion can be hard to control. One reason why i dont think foilers will become a big thing in the US is that you need to have a lot of knowledge about hydrodynamics or maybe possibly aerodynamics would get you by..Not everyone who sails knows a whole lot about why this certain foil shape produces this lift and why, nor do many care. A lot of them just want to sail. Also, why would you bother to make a recreational foiler? It makes some sense in the Moth Class, because that is a developement class and they are racing the things, but i dont think the majority of people want to spend the time learning how to fly the boat, just for bragging rights. With the Moths they have the potential to get a fleet of them, but there are still only a few foiling Moths in the world.

    On a small boat, keeping it simpler usually makes sense if you are trying to create market appeal.
     

  10. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    selective shots?

    As I understand the story behind the video Sebastian had never sailed a Moth before getting on Rohans and foiling like a bat out of hell. He was so impressed he bought the boat!** From what I saw he'd have saved some time and a little frustration if there had been a removable set of buoyancy pods(that he might not have used) that could have been clipped on the boat.Some of the best Moth sailors* around think that buoyancy pods are a good idea for beginners and there is no question that a "Peoples foiler would have them- makes it easier and quicker to get to the fun part.
    In Sebastian Josse's case he went from never sailing a Moth to foiling in a very, very short time. I wonder what he'd say if you asked him how beginners should start : spend two or three seasons learning to sail a skinny Moth as a seahugger(like some "experts" have advised) or clip on some buoyancy pods and foil the same day you put your boat in the water??
    A Peoples(Voodoo, Hoot or? ) foiler would offer the buoyancy pods as standard and might or might not make them removable. One things for sure: people want to fly and they don't want to screw around for months before they do it....
    ==================
    2, you asked why build a recreational foiler? I've sailed a Rave foiler and my own and the answer is that the sensation is incredible.And the quiet...And the quiet combined with speed... Read Phil S's description on SA under "building a Moth" and there are many other people who have written about the "feeling" of foiling.Speed can sure be a part of it because you'll be able to foil in light air when planing boats aren't and if the techniques can be successfully developed you'll be able to JUMP at will!
    Complication is NOT a necessary part of sailing a monofoiler; the foils can be on a retractable board and rudder-you won't have to insert them from the bottom like a Moth. The technical work will be done and just to sail on foils you'll need no more hydrodynamic knowledge than it takes to sail a Sunfish. Buoyancy pods will prevent the frequent capsizes associated with learning to sail a skinny Moth etc, etc.
    The market is ripe for another revolution in sailing like Hobie & the Windsurfers started and it is already begining.....
    ========================
    * Moth sailors comment on buoyancy pods:
    http://www.int-moth.org.uk/IsthisamothSP.htm
    ** SA story about Josse buying the boat-and competing in the 2007 Moth Worlds!
    Sailing Anarchy Home Page
    Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2006
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