Veal Heel for Multihull Foilers

What chance Middle East peace when humans of similar culture and persuasions exhibit so much spleen, in what should be a constructive and logical forum. Come on fellas - if you can't play nicely you can go to your rooms. And I'm not joking - let's have some respect amongst each other.

Attack the argument, disect the logic - play the ball but respect the player. These simple rules I think are written somewhere in the terms of use of this forum.

Thankyou.

Now, back to the argument...

 

Mr. Dog, thanks for your comments! This stuff is mostly new, though it has a solid basis in proven design and experience. When something new is posted on almost any forum the reactions vary from curiosity to hostility-its just human nature. Some will try to "debunk" the idea,others will attack the poster, and still others will bring up reasonable well considered questions, ideas etc. Its all part of the forum experience.
But if you post a new idea you better be willing (and able) to knowledgeably express why you think it is worthwhile.
Thanks again for your willingness to try to "keep the peace"-it takes guts to do that.

 

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Mr Lord,

I love the forum when at its best. Like many others, I have learnt from it. I just get sad when simple manners are ignored and it devolves into a denegration session.

I appreciate as well as anyone that putting up new ideas sets you up for attack. I've done it for a living for 30 years! But it is the idea that should be attacked - if it works, it will stand. If not, it should fall. Test metal with acid.

But the person should always be respected for trying something new. Without innovation, where would we be? Actually, there is no simple answer to that question - it depends on where you place value, like is the love of a good woman - or the mateship of a good friend worth more than, as much, or less than as a fast boat? But that's probably not a relevant discussion for here!

Let's get back to the discussion about heeling...

 

Re heeling rigs this post....

My old Catapult cat had a canting rig (discussed previously on another thread). While not truly heeling the whole boat - and therefore not getting any of the advantages of the heeled foils - it certainly proved the point about lift generated by the vertical vector in the forces.

If the rig was plumb, the lee bow had a tendency to bury when off the wind, even on a shy reach. Cant the rig 8~10° to windward, and it would visibly lift. It should be noted that rake had an even more pronounced affect when close hauled, as expected. This was all with the jib+main skiff rig, not the original cat rig. The jib definitely provided more bow lift.

The canting rig was one feature of that boat which I would definitely like to try on my A-cat. I wonder if anyone else has?

As for foilers on A-cats - that's now dead in the water after an international vote last year. Not sure it was a good move in retrospect.

Yours truly, Mr B. Dog (G. Cat)

 

While I appreciate the lecture on decorum, BD... the fact remains that Douglas has proposed umpteen of these so-called world beating ideas over the last many years (I'll reiterate them if you like) and to this date, has not proved that a single one of them can work, much less have they the kind of grounded substance to merit a significant look-see.

This particular idea has been bandied-about for a very long period of time... long enough, actually, for Doug to have built an example of a working version at full size and yet... there is absolutely nothing on the water at this time.

Personally, I think it's a very long-odds crapshoot as to whether this Power Foil, or whatever Doug chooses to call it, will ever work in the real world. There are significant issues with its efficacy when sailing in real conditions and Doug has never successfully addressed them to this point in time.

This "idea" remains a pipe dream and shall stay that way until such time as a full size working version of this "concept" emerges as a boat that can state its own case.

Since you haven't been around for the past, what is it now, Doug... eight years, in which dozens of these same kind of oh-so-groovy, concepts, have been slammed onto these pages by Mr. Lord, only to ignominiously disappear into the wasteland of, they'll never be seeing the light of day... you wouldn't know how often we've all been subjected to this same kind of rigamaroll.

To put it succinctly... Doug wastes the provided bandwidth of our generous host in the most abusive of fashions.

If you wish to defend this process and waste your time, by all means, my man, get on board the Doug Lord train to nowhere and let us know when it reaches its destination.

We'll all still be here to receive the urgently delivered news.

 

Chris - I appreciate that Doug may have a history of ideas yet to be proven. but it is still common courtesy to allow him the space to air ideas. Who knows - the next one may be The One. Edison and nearly every other inventor has a cupboard full of ideas that didn't work.

If your are offended by a scrappy pen drawing, you are not forced to post anything - go and have nioce capoccino somewhere, and smell the avocados on the way.

 

No, DL,
I am not wrong.
I understand how these foils work even if you don't like what I say about it.
The engineering and optimisation may be complex but the concepts are simple and well established.

The point of refering to sailrocket was to draw your attention to foil ventilation, aka "blow out" or "spin out," regardless of whether the foil is oriented to produce lift horizontally or vertically.

The blow out phenomenon is a potential achilles heal of any system that dips foils as you descibe to make RM, just as it is a concern in vessels that use foils in other configurations. The other main worry that comes to mind with the design concept you describe for power foils is the potential for higher shock loads that will happen when things get a little off kilter, particularly twisting forces.
I only mention these things in a friendly effort to be helpful.
Sorry if you don't like naysaying, but it is part of the process. When you propose new ideas, the burden's on you to demonstrate their utility and practicality.

Yes, I also was making fun of you a little bit in regard to your past descriptions of jumping boats. I see your sense of humor is lacking in this area.
Sorry if that is a sore subject, I won't dwell on it.

In addition to that little bit of teasing, I thought, and still think, you are due a bit of criticism for various neologisms, including "veal heel."

I think neologisms are usually unwarranted and all the systems and concepts discussed can be adequately and perhaps more clearly described in conventional terms.

That is all, carry on.

 

Oh, now I understand. I thought the jumping boat reference was great-you'll notice I didn't mention it at all because it is going to be one of the great applications for "fun" foiling down the line. Really.
---
You said:"The problem with little foils is despite designers' efforts, in reality they both load up and ventilate at inopportune times. Works for boards because the sailor or surfer is so big and mobile relative to everything else, he can rapidly unweight and reset the flow. Not so simple on a boat, have to ride it out, come off plane, off foil, etc. Sailrocket example illustrates the pitfall of relying on hydrofoil for RM. "
Now that sounds to me like you're saying that the "..Sailrocket example illustrates the pitfall of relying on hydrofoil for RM".
Wait, that IS what you said! Now, of course, Sailrocket doesn't use hydrofoils for RM. So you seem to be saying that the vertical fins on Sailrocket illustrate the pitfalls of using hydrofoils for RM. If so, I'm sorry but that doesn't make much sense to me: the vertical foil(s) on Sailrocket operate in an ENTIRELY different way than do the vertical or horizontal foils in the Power Foil system:
1) the vertical strut in the Power Foil System develops NO LIFT and operates as a streamlined foil only. This is because,with veal heel, the function of lateral resistance is combined with the horizontal* main foil and the horizontal* Power Foil to unload the vertical fins of both the Power Foil and mainfoil.(one lifts vertically up, one lifts vertically down, EACH has a windward component that provides lateral resistance. )
2) lateral resistance on Sailrocket is provided by highly loaded vertical foils that operate right at the air/water interface and are far more likely to ventilate(catastrophic loss of lift) than any foil used on the Power Foil system.
Your example is just plain wrong, but I appreciate your comments and thoughts on the subject.
As to veal heel: I explained earlier that "veal heel" has a specific meaning not included in the term "windward heel" and that is why it is used.

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* nominally horizontal-operating at an ideal angle to the horizontal of approximately 20 degrees.

 

Whatever, it was just an example, not the thesis of what I had to say.
And maybe you haven't looked at sailrocket in a while. Maybe I said it because the foil is not vertical.
I seem to remember having written fairly carefully but don't care to reread it all now. If you do, perhaps you should be a lawyer or paralegal.
I tried that once and it was boring.
The main foil almost certainly does play a role in RM, and it is the one that ventilated leading to lift off. So I feel it makes a fair example.
You seem concerned with RM in this thread, so that is relevant. Still the big issue is not foil orientation but what happens when it lets go. And how much fun that might be if the foil is out on a beam or ama.

We are likely not to agree on terminology. I just feel it sounds a bit dense to propose a new term for a supposedly new technique when the new technique consists entirely of sliding your rear end to windward on a dinghy. Like that has never happened before. Sure there are other technique differences in sailing foilers, but they don't really fall under the category of heel.

The difference is in the appendages configuration as discussed extensively, not the hiking technique. Or the orientiation of heel. Which is still to windward.
I guess I am just so used to it from windsurfing kiting and other sports that I take it for granted.
Windsurfers kiteboards powerboats etc do similar things, just have a different shaped lifting surface.
Why should something seen for decades in some craft get a shiny new misnomer all of a sudden when applied to a new type of boat?
Just because Veal won a few regattas, or because Doug Lord has internet?

Of course you can call it feng shui heel, Papi Ortiz Heel,
Sponge Bob Squarepants heel, or Nikita Kruschev heel if brightens your day.
Just please don't expect everyone to agree, or to be seen as some sort of authority.

Think I might start calling it JayZ heel, cause I got 99 problems but this thread aint one.
Oh and see, not so vertical:

 

====================
You misunderstand the significance of the physics behind veal heel-a term used by several designers of bi-foilers in addition to many foiler sailors.
It is a vast oversimplification to say "a technique that consists entirely of sliding your rear end to windward on a dinghy".
There is NO other non-foiling dinghy where the RM is increased 20% due entirely to the movement of the boat + crew CG to windward of the center of lift of the boat AFTER the crew is at max extension. The crew can start out at max hiking(or trapezing) extension and by learning the technique(first developed by Rohan Veal) he can THEN increase RM 20% by not moving himself at all(relative to the boat).The benefits of veal heel only work on a foiler that is 100% supported by foils-not on any other dinghy. As I have said twice now (and described in detail) "veal heel" describes something substantially more than windward heel- thats why the foiler guys use the term and thats why I use the term.

 

I have done a bit of research on the web and in the Pittwater area (surely the centre of the sailing universe?), and although the Macquarie Dictionary (the most up to date and responsive dictionary in the English speaking world) does not list the term, it is commonly accepted as meaning heel to windward in a foiling vessel.

Nothing new about windward heel of course - Bethwaite mentions it at length in The Bible (no, not that one, the High Performance Sailing one) in relation to light air upwind performance. But of course, when Bethwaite wrote that worthy tome, foiling Moths were still over the horizon. As Doug and others point out above, veal heel is when you get the boat to increase its RM, not just increasing the efficiency of the rig. This is where VH is a quantum leap beyond other forms of windward heel in non-foilers.

Whether it is a neologism is irrelevant - neologisms are useful, that's why they get created: "Neologisms tend to occur more often in cultures that are changing rapidly and also in situations where there is easy and fast propagation of information." (Wikipedea). I think that foilers and multihulls fit that description pretty well!

It has also been pointed out that a field with a lot organic neologisms (ie, that have come into without artificial interference) is by definition a fast evolving filed of endeavour. IT is a classic example. So you would expect the bleeding edge of high speed sailing to be spawning a few... let the neologisms come - it proves we're kicking bottom!

 

I really don't think I misunderstand it a bit. Significance?
I guess significance is more a question of significance to whom.

It is a bit boring for the forum but for your satisfaction I will put it in simplest terms:
in discussing foilers in the roll axis we describe a lever
acted on by forces: weights of crew and vessel,
pressures of wind and water.
A fancy teeter totter you can draw force vectors around.
Simple, elegant, and a long way from a built boat.

I don't see why you object so when anyone comes along and introduces considerations
of what can go wrong with a design when built.
Shouldn't such considerations have a place in the design process, and in discussion of designs?

If your design addresses the issues brought up, why not just explain how rather than cast aspersions?

As far as the sidebar argument on terminology,
it is possible some confuse design with technique because they try to practice one
while having given up on the other.
Applies equally I guess to dumb sailors and lazy designers.

Seems clear the bifoil designs allow generation of RM,
the technique is trimming the boat with your weight,
and the heel resulting is to windward.
Yes the foils contribute to RM -because of their design. whoopee.
Perhaps mothists will become known for flabby abs.
The fact that the sailor may not have to hike as hard once the boat is at optimal trim
doesn't make it a new technique. This can be true of many boats, foiled or not.
If it's easier on the belly and goes fast that's nice, but not a new technique.
Still think veal heel is a silly gimmicky sounding term
and at least somewhat misapplied when called a technique.

I notice you've gotten a bit quiet on that sailrocket foil.
Looked around 30 degrees to me.
Foils like that are not neccessarily bad, but they aren't foolproof and seem relevant to your proposals.
Failure modes and dynamic stability problems are important to think about.
See you later, I am going to go windglide my waterskipper with JayZ heel.
So my lazy fat self doesn't have to hike so hard.

 

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Yes,absolutely. The only "objection" was to the validity of the comparision, no objection at all to any "..considerations of what can go wrong". In fact, I invite those kind of considerations-they help me to think things like this out. Your comparison, however, equated the behaviour of a foil or foils that is highly loaded AT the air/water interface with a fully submerged foil that is not near the air/water interface. That is not a valid comparision if it is used(as you appeared to be using it) to assess the viability of the Power Foil. A much more appropo comparision, for the purpose of illustrating the performance of a Power Foil, is the windward foil of a Hobie Trifoiler or Rave in strong wind conditions. Those foils are fully submerged foils that develop negative lift in strong wind conditions and rarely, if ever, become unstuck.

 

Veal Heel-one last time.....

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No. That is not the case-the foils have nothing to do with RM! RM is generated by a bi-foiler heeled to windward while 100% supported by two hydrofoils and/or two hydrofoils assisted by one Power Foil(which does contribute to RM!).
There is no other non-foiling dinghy that creates 20% more RM by being heeled to weather! Look at the previous posts on veal heel-there is much more to it than creating RM. Because it is so much different than "windward heel" on a normal dinghy or windsurfer it is deserving of a name that instantly conveys to those knowledgeble about/or interested in bi-foiler design exactly what is being discussed.