Veal Heel for Multihull Foilers

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. waynemarlow
    Joined: Nov 2006
    Posts: 425
    Likes: 41, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 134
    Location: UK

    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Chris O you probably cause more disruption and angst on foil design on the BD forums than any other person, lets start a campaign to see if enough of us can get you kicked of BD, just like you did on SA with Doug, it would be doing us all a favour.

    I had to laugh at your sanctimonious and pious little sermon around new years eve on SA on how sorry you were to have Doug kicked off the SA Forum for disrupting debate on foil design. Were you pissed, had a little guilt moment or just trying to orate to your flock, really just like some do goody clap trap evangelist.

    I and a lot of others think you are a disruption to sensible debate on foil design here on this forum, you asked for Doug to removed from the SA for that very reason. If you don't wish to be considered to be a hypocrite then we would ask that you refrain from entering into debate on this forum anything to do with foiling. If you can't do that then to gain any standing from us all then you must campaign to have Doug reinstated back on SA, it is after all only fair.:)
     
    3 people like this.
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,662
    Likes: 332, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ------------------------
    I think you're wrong here thanks to over 15 years of hydrofoil design, model testing,fullsize testing and countless hours sailing model foilers and close to 100 hours on full size foilers-as well as being "tutored" by one of the best in the world-Dr. Bradfield. And as mentioned earlier the concept will be tested on my new boat-and another experimental boat(not mentioned earlier).
    ---------
     
  3. DaveJ
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 131
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Brisbane, Australia

    DaveJ Senior Member

    Data on your own boat dude, not every one elses. No one else has built what your designing, so you have no data on that concept. BTW the concept of hydrofoils have been around longer than areofoils, afterall thats where the aerofoils got their data from.
     
  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,662
    Likes: 332, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ----------------------------
    Oh yes I do--lots.
     
  5. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 2,998
    Likes: 118, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Doug wrote: "Windward foil negative lift has worked well on Long Shot(feeler), the Trifoiler(feeler), the Rave(wand),the Osprey(wand-soon) and the F3(wand)-thats a good heritage that works for me..."

    Yes, yes, on these boats there is some holding down forces out to weather operating .... but I guarantee the platforms' equilibrium and balance, the major force keeping these boats upright .... is the leeward foil providing high lift, not the windward holding down. Remember, both sets of foils tearing through the water, naturally the windward foil will be difficult to lift out - but I still believe this is a minor force. The leeward foil under the press of the sail or sails, is doing damn near all the hard work. And remember again, on the Ketterman foilers, that windward foil is not inverted, but a conventional up lifting model; to get that one to provide negative forces down .... requires a **** load of drag to implement.
     
  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,662
    Likes: 332, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Gary, I don't want to beat a dead horse here so I'll just mention this: Bradfield often made the point to me that the force generated in strong winds by the windward foil was massive-not minor. To reinforce that he told me he had a sticker made up to go in the Rave cockpit that said words to the effect: DO NOT SAIL IN WINDS OVER 30 KNOTS. They had a few of the approximately 5" diameter aluminum cross arms break with people doing just that-the boat doesn't heel if it is set up right-it just goes faster until it breaks if you don't reduce sail. Thats a lot of force from BOTH foils. Downforce works, its well proven.
    I think I can find an old paper by Greg Ketterman on this subject-would you like to read it?
     
  7. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 2,998
    Likes: 118, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Doug, I've got some Ketterman material here, thanks. But back to Sam Bradfield's Rave in high wind strengths; the reason it broke beams was, I'm sure, because the windward foil, and if what you and the designer says is correct, the angle of negative attack there was such that it hauled that side down so float as well as foil would be mostly underwater, that would be the last thing you would want .... putting huge loads on the structure and beams. At the same time the conventional leeward lifting foil would have been lifting that area and seesawing down the windward foil... in flying waves, that would be fatal. You don't need three foils underwater in high winds and sea, just two, let the windward one fly free.
     
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,662
    Likes: 332, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Rave

    One last thing: Dr. Sam would want the foil in the water; his boat would not function with either main foil out of the water in heavy wind conditions. And when the cross beams broke the speed was well in excess of 30 knots. Don't forget that the force increases as the square of speed. Floats were never under water(wand controlled altitude so altitude didn't change from what it was in a 15 knot wind).
    OK, now that I have convinced you I'll do some work.
     
  9. lesburn1
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 25
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: 40:09:01.3 - 75:07:29.5

    lesburn1 Junior Member

    I don't want to beat a dead horse

    "I don't want to beat a dead horse" since when? ;)
     
  10. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member


    I know that you are a rookie in all of this Internet posting stuff, Wayne and it shows ominously when you choke on your own spittle with pronouncements such as the one above. Go ask around at SA, young lad, and you'll see that Douglas got his butt run from that forum because he yanked one too many members, with the last being his turgid tirade against World Moth Champion, Bora Gulari. The incident is well documented and without issue in anyone's mind save for your own.

    Now, if you're interested in starting a Chris O Fan Club, which it appears you are well on your way to accomplishing with all your posts on my fine self, then I hereby designate you as Guardian of the Eternal Candle Flame in the lavishly appointed clubhouse loo.

    A commemorative t-shirt, tastefully emblazoned with your official title, will be on its way as soon as you supply your home address.

    Wayne; Just a kind, fatherly note... it's always best to do your homework before spewing in front of a gathered mob. Eventually, nobody will care what shirt you are wearing and they'll all simply have their way with you.

    Good Day, lad, the next meeting will be a week from Friday, 7PM at the usual location. Please be prompt.



    Obviously, this is all meant as pure satire and in no way a representation of my appreciation of fellow member Wayne Marlow. Perhaps a little levity can go a long way to making things nice?
     
  11. lesburn1
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 25
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: 40:09:01.3 - 75:07:29.5

    lesburn1 Junior Member

    waynemarlow, I was in no way responsible the booting of DL from SA.
    I view Doug as a harmless enthusiast.
    I did have him in my ignore list at SA, and to tell the truth
    I was disappointed in the way he was often treated.
    I hope that his project comes to fruition soon and we can all
    revel in his genius.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,662
    Likes: 332, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Veal Heel for Multihulls

    The sketch below illustrates one way that a multifoiler can take advantage of veal heel. There is another way-with a pivoting crossarm-that allows the boat configuration in light to moderate air to be more "normal".
    The Moth sketch shows an illustration from Bill Beavers paper(also below) that shows the forces involved on a "veal heeled" Moth:
     

    Attached Files:

  13. waynemarlow
    Joined: Nov 2006
    Posts: 425
    Likes: 41, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 134
    Location: UK

    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Chris you have to be one of the most verbose idiots of any forum that I have come across.

    Turn off your computer and stop whittling away your time on internet forums, you would be a much better and happier man for it.

    As I have said before this is a Boat Design Forum, lets get back to just that, designing boats.
     
  14. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    So, quit making posts like the one above.

    What you wish to criticize is exactly what you have become.

    In the meantime, offer-up your comments as to having a foil on the windward side of any boat which is designed by description to be pulling down. According to Doug, it has to pull down in order to counter the overwhelming forces at play. When those primary forces are removed, such as when the wind shuts-off, leaving the skipper way out on the wing, with the main foil just happily lifting away around it's locus and the questionable heeling foil also pulling down with a vengeance... the boat will quickly find itself in the drink and the skipper will be floundering about, trying desperately to avoid the deployed windward foil and all of its sharp edges and points.

    Interestingly enough, when one takes all of these various and sundry foily threads as an amalgam of thought, it's inescapable that Doug already feels that the existing Moth foil style is well-beyond being questioned as the top-end of the game. He has posted threads that address Foil Design (primarily all about foiling Moths and their ancillary thinking). He has repeatedly gone on the record with the Moth on Foils (speeds like something from another planet) thread, in which he celebrates the type and how it is the fastest monohull under 20'. There have been a half a dozen other Moth and Foil related threads. He routinely will lecture one about how twin foil technoogy is the latest and greatest thing to hit sailing in the last century... and yet now, he thinks that Mothies need to add even more foils to the edges of their tramp wings in order to really make a cats-*** statement. Kinda makes all that other Moth stuff fairly moot in value and well-before their time, the Moths have been rendered obsolete... according to Doug, that is.

    So, which one is it gonna be, cause you can't have it both ways.

    You have read the comments of Gary Baigent, an extremely decent fellow who is very well versed in the business of foiling craft design and operation and he minces no words while he cautions against the use of such foils. Yet, you remain mum on the topic, even after having publicly, yet meekly, found agreement with my stated position.

    Is it now so difficult for you to actually capitulate as to your posture and come right out and state, for the record, that you do not find the suggested technology, as it has been presented by Doug Lord, to be functionally viable in this application?

    Come on, Wayne, why not quit with the pedantic nonsense and really address the topic as it has been stated by myself and Baigent? Do you, or do you not, have the temerity to put yourself out there based on your understanding of the issue?

    We'll wait, though I suspect that you'll launch into another ad Hominem attack in order to deflect your inability to substantively step into the light. I wouldn't mind the flippant remarks from you if they actually had any humor attached... but they don't.

    I'd love it if you could prove me wrong on this last bit.... so, what do you say, Wayne? Have you got what it takes to declare yourself? Any other response you from you will be viewed as more pablum and not at all about enunciating your position.

    The mic is hot and the stage is all yours.... Have at it, Sir.
     

  15. waynemarlow
    Joined: Nov 2006
    Posts: 425
    Likes: 41, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 134
    Location: UK

    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Sadly Chris I'm not as verbose as yourself and deal only with real life detail.

    You asked of my opinion and I have openly stated previously that Dougs idea probably will not work, but not for the reasons you list. At 30 + knots a skipper is not going to be sat out on the outer Ama, physically that would be impossible due to the G forces involved and that is largely your contention that of the skipper dipping his arse into the water.

    Some Foilers do rely on controlled downward pull on the windward Ama, the Rave and Trifoiler are two examples. As to additional foils coming into play, in theory yes they may on paper work, in practice the complexity of operation would overcome any gain they would make through increased drag and weight considerations.

    However we must be able to explore these ideas without self proclaimed evangelists of the hating foiling variety trying to butt in. New ideas are few and far between, any idea sensibly discussed can lead onto other better ideas being introduced from that one not so good idea.

    Now Chris its time you and I had a bet with each other. I bet you cannot refrain from making any post on Boat Design for 1 week as I think your whole life has become addicted to reading and making comment on sailing forums. Equally I won't make any further comment for 1 week. I have other things I want to be doing such as starting the build of a new boat this week so it should be relatively easy for me.

    So whats it to be Chris a confirmed forum junkie or a winner ?
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.