Value Building = 38ft @ US$ 100,000

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by FAST FRED, May 6, 2007.

  1. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    We have reached the point where we have to face reality of a limiting budget.

    The desire is a 38.6 loa X 7.6 ft boat that will fit into a std hi cube shipping container.
    The plan is a modified Atkin box keel power boat that will both ship and cruise well.

    The question is where and what to build it of.

    In my mid 60,s I'm not sure I want what would be a 2 year home project , so by selling existing boats , should see a $100K to plunk into the new one.

    Having built boats of Airex , Foam core and glass would be my first choice , as being a "one of" does not add that much to the overall cost , and happily the fairing won't be done by me!

    Second choice is welded (or perhaps lap strake & riveted) aluminum.
    As a cruiser no exterior paint would be required .

    In third place is cold molded ply , this makes a great lightweight hull, but the resale may suffer from fears of a "wood boat" and eventually every boat is sold. (No Viking Funeral for me.)


    The hull needs to be about 2000 lbs with 3000 as a max as the envisioned all up weight is 8000lbs with 2000 for engine and accessories .

    Where would one look for a builder that understands LIGHT WEIGHT construction , and could build the boat?

    If necessary , since the boat is so easily and cheaply shipped , I would consider home completion , as the interior and all systems are minimalist , to keep down weight , cost and repairs.Current plans are to live near the builder to be on hand for most decisions

    Any advice and comments and concepts sought,

    FF
     
  2. openboater
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: central NYS

    openboater Junior Member

    Aluminum , what a wonderful material.

    I've got a grumman canoe that's 40 years old and looks like the day it left the
    Marathon NY factory, just a little less shiney. Oh, did I mention it has had zero maintainance and it sits out on the rack 12 months a year ??

    I'm shopping for a 25' displacement design to build for the ICW and maybe the great loop. good luck on your quest.

    this is too large at 55', but if George Buehlers design can do this, than I'm sure a tin Atkins can handle the inside of a shipping container just fine.


    http://www.idlewildexpedition.ca/pictures/005_June_2005.htm
     
  3. Mark Van
    Joined: Jul 2002
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    Mark Van Junior Member

    That budget seems close to realistic, especially if you do a lot of the work yourself. I designed and built a 39 foot sharpie houseboat close to that size, mine is 9' wide, however. I have less than $30,000 in materials, plus about 2,500 hours labor. It is epoxy plywood, which is relatively easy to build.
     
  4. dick stave
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    dick stave Senior Member

    Aluminum sheet can be had for $1.50- $2.00 per pound,extrusions are slightly more.A 3000 lb hull (going for the high end of your estimation) could be built pretty inexpensively. I have built two 16 footers for under $1500complete ,less power and trailer. Welded of course is the only viable method of construction.
     
  5. openboater
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: central NYS

    openboater Junior Member

    5052 AL is $2.75 a lb in central NY. plus 8% sales tax for the governor and your up to $3.00 / lb.

    3/16ths (.188") weights 2.74 lbs per sq ft.
    4x12 sheet is 132 lb's or $361.68. MIG wire is $8.00 per lb.

    adimetal in Florida lists sheets of 5086 as large as 8x24's. adimetal.com


    less welding but you better measure 3 times before cuting too small on a sheet that size.
     
  6. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    would you like me to come build it?
    see my gallery:)) I only half joking. but your weights are a bit low, to get a strong , plate boat which would not need fairing
     
  7. dick stave
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    dick stave Senior Member

    $3.00/lb. thats what I pay for stainless. Sorry about your luck. Is Idlewild still for sale? Might be able to recover 500 K at scrap prices on the east coast
     
  8. openboater
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    openboater Junior Member

    Yea, Aluminum prices are steep where i live. Scrap AL is going for 66 cents a pound. but steel scrap is 4 cents. I had a pickup truck of old tractors and parts I sold, the $40 was hardly worth the cost of pain pills for my aching back.
    I figure the world is due for one heck of a recession soon, commodity prices will be reasonable then.

    Fast Fred, where is this container full of boat gonna' be cruising ? Mediterrian ? South Pacific ? Kansas ?
     
  9. ASM
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    ASM Senior Member

    Building where ?

    Dear Fred,

    Can I ask you about the design ? Do you have a sketch or picture ? just out of interest, I am by no means a boatbuilder or copier.... For my work, I travel all around the world to a lot of superyacht shipyards and I think for foam/FRP or Wood/FRP could be very nicely done in Taiwan.... yes Taiwan. The are skilled, cheap and since it is shippable in a container, transport will not be that difficult. Spend a month there (nice holiday !) to oversee the project and there you go ! By making a mould, you could make some money afterwars then as well (maybe just bare hull making there, though their woodwork is fine). A lot of so called 'US' GRp boatbuilders have their yachts build in Taiwan, shrinkwrapped and after nameplating it, sold in the US. Furthermore, Taiwanese are perfect traders and spokesmen for Western people to deal with China, they often have a factory themselves in China, run from Taiwanese engineering grounds.
     
  10. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    IN terms of the hull from the WL down River Belle ,http://www.atkinboatplans.com/ is what we will use , modified by slimming math.

    Above water the "look" desired is STROLLER by Herrishoff, a 1920's commuter that was larger but of the same L/B ratio.

    Taiwan would be fine as my old employer flies there , so cheap pass travel would be fine.

    Do you have a yard or two that has done this sort of work?Their fine woodwork and joinery might be lost as weight will be such a concern,, painted ply instead of carved Teak .

    UAL also services NZ , so having a CNC cut outs assembled in NZ , which does fine aluminum work is also a possibility.

    If the budget were unlimited a Deere turbo 6081 and ZF 90TS would be the choice, but a marinized truck Cummins 5.9 or similar will have to do.

    As tank tests are really expensive ,this is sort of experiment as to how the performance will turn out. ECONOMY with fine sea keeping ability is on top of the list . The goal is 16K cruise at as close to 5nmpg as can be done or better..
    Top speed , whatever.

    Thanks for the posts so far , it gives confidence that the dream can be done.

    FF
     

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    Last edited: May 7, 2007
  11. ASM
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    ASM Senior Member

    Taiwan etc.

    Fred,

    We happen to have an Taiwanese agent as well and have contacts with about 6 shipyards there. I am working for www.vancappellen.org, dealing with reducing noise and vibration on board luxury yachts mainly.

    The River Belle concept looks very good, and I like the shallow draft, containarable idea, lightweight and economic cruising. I am looking into that same size yacht, medium speed say 8 - 12 knots or so, but ran by electric motor, some solar panels to charge on the way. The Herresshoff design is about the same as I had falle din love with, the Bolger design commuter launch from the magazine messing bout in boats.

    Do I understand you changed the above waterline shapes a bit ? probably to get rid of the realy straight main deck line and more into the Herresshoff one ?

    Have you thought about a new VW diesel SDI engine ? They are extremely fuel efficient (millions of VW casr run on it at 25 km/l diesel) and are at 55 Hp, you can also have TDI engines in 3,4,5 and 6 cilinder configuration. I think truck engines are too heavy and too big. Yanmer is a great brand too for lightweight as is Steyr.

    Keep in touch, we are on the same line here..... maybe I can borrow/buy a hull ?
     

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  12. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    Hi Fred,

    You could always talk with that guy in the Philippines who builds boats for a living. He is an American so you won't have any problem communicating with him ... and from what I hear he has experience and a thorough understanding of lightweight construction.

    I doubt that you could beat his price given his location and availability of cheap materials and labor. A tropical boat building vacation in the Philippines is not a bad thing to consider either, assuming you might want to go there and supervise the project.

    I would send him an email if I were you. He may have ideas about producing more than one of your boats -- and he is actually building a Seabright skiff at the moment, so perhaps he understand your design goals better than most ... :)
     
  13. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "I doubt that you could beat his price given his location and availability of cheap materials and labor."

    Cheap materials are seldom light weight , foam core is expensive , although Airex is priced in Gold , Core cell or the dozens of similar products are not, but not cheap either!

    If built in GRP I would also prefer to use FR (fire retardant resin) which is a bit harder to locate than plain Vynelester, as well as a small bit more expensive.

    Labor skilled in wooden boat building would be ideal for building the plug , on which a core boat is created.Only simple skills are needed for foam core lamination , but a dry location with moderate humidity is needed.

    A sample of other similar COMPLETED projects would be interesting , as I'm not interested in creating a boat building shop again.


    Have you thought about a new VW diesel SDI engine ? They are extremely fuel efficient (millions of VW casr run on it at 25 km/l diesel) and are at 55 Hp, you can also have TDI engines in 3,4,5 and 6 cilinder configuration. I think truck engines are too heavy and too big. Yanmer is a great brand too for lightweight as is Steyr.

    I wish to go cruising in this boat and as some places will be less conducive to repairs than others , so prefer an engine I can fix.

    I;m trying to avoid electric injection as "dead in the water" could be a single lightning side strike.Ditto for overhead cams that are belt (not chain or gear ) driven.
    A bit of rust and the pistons and valves are dancing with each other.

    "Much ungood" for a remote location, although at low speeds an outboard might work as a get home.

    The higher 16K cruising speed hoped for will require an engine of 100hp or so, and many of the engines listed either have no cont duty rating at all .

    The Light duty rating might be fine , but ad a diesel owner for years 3500rpm at cruise may take some time to get used to.

    Please , keep sending those thoughts and suggestions ,

    FF
     
  14. Ausiwik
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    Ausiwik Junior Member


  15. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    kengrome Senior Member

    Gmelina wood is relatively light weight when dry, it works easily, it is readily available, and at 40 cents a board foot it is very cheap. Epoxy is not light weight but at $23 per gallon it seems pretty cheap to me, too.
     
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