Unusual design for an extra-heavy-displacement 11ft long Atlantic Proa for circumnavigation

The ama or amas will only increase the roll. That hull looks like one of the "buoy houseboats" that were proposed some years ago. However, as a sailboat it is an absolutely horrible design. The drag is extremely high for the sail area. Displacement/sail area is one of the main parameters that will affect speed. Also, the boat is not deep enough to prevent roll, pitch and heave. Search the way water moves in a wave. There is as much under as over the surface. Even a moderate sea of 2 m would affect the hull. In fact, it would affect it more since the water is rotating and would create a larger moment than a conventional hull. In short, the design is a dream that does not consider the basics of physics.
 
I agree that it does, you are right. But it also causes the roll, which in turn activates the single most important risk factor that we have for our circumnavigation plan- the seasickness.
That is incorrect. Beam, underwater shape and location of CG are the most important factors. Length will in general decrease the pitching acceleration.
 
Thank you all for all the comments and replies. I have been a bit busy, but I will find time to reply you during the coming days.

In the meantime, I drew a few sketches of my intended sailplan which some of you asked. It turns out I am not very good at drawing- in my mind that picture is a lot clearer then I can get it on the paper. But I hope you will be able to understand at least something what I meant. Also, I have to add that, unlike many other things which I shared, the mainsail design is a very recent invention of mine, and I haven’t thought it through much yet. So I wouldn’t be surprised if you will spot some serious problems with it. The same goes with the “cross breed” of the bowsprit and foremast. The foresail and mizzensail themselves I have tested in real life, and I am very satisfied with how they perform. Their main purpose is steering (as I don’t intend to use any rudders).

My main consideration regarding sails and rig:
1) the whole rig has to be very strong, and able to withstand repeated capsizing and pitchpoling (think: it must be short), with minimum amount of potential points of failure (think: unstayed masts and junk-rig-style absence of highly loaded, leveraged parts), and easily repairable in a remote location (think: low-tech).
2) The rig has to be able to sustainably hold stable course on any point of sail without rudder, windvane or autopilot. That means the centre of effort must be in line with the centre of resistance (under any angle of heel), and it has to be a considerable distance downwind of it, for it to be directionally stable.
3) The total sail area is 26.36 m². For almost 13 tons of boat (2.06 m² per ton) this sounds ridiculously small, but I am not comparing this non-standard vessel to conventional cruising boats, I am comparing it to Yrvind’s Exlex, which is a little bit more similar to what I intend to do (even though it’s very light). He had 4 m² per ton and was perfectly happy with it. As “to increase speed by 60% propulsion power needs to be increased by 867%” (YRVIND TEN – THE SAILS https://www.yrvind.com/yrvind-ten-the-sails/), I hope to be getting around 85% of his average speed in Exlex, which, if true, would be completely satisfying for us.

Here is the drawing of the sailplan as seen from the windward beam:
IMG_5927.jpeg

The two smaller sails are typical junk rig sails, with the exception that they are hinged at the tack and they have three sheets each for full trim control in both directions and on any working angle. Two of the sheets are attached to special protrusions on the boom near the tack for the sheeting angles to work as intended.
IMG_5928.jpeg

The mainsail is something very unusual which I recently came up with. It is like a cross between a squaresail and a Chinese junk sail, but with a big difference of the battens being kept at a considerable distance away from mast by “legs” (slightly similar to a gaff with its throat). Therefore for raising such battens (together with the sail) they have to be raised by three halyards- 2 of them hang from a T-shaped yard and the third is a throat halyard (similar to a gaff rig). The whole constellation of sail, “legged” battens and T-shaped yard is turned together as one piece around the mast by Chinese-junk-rig-type sheets in the same pattern as braces turn a squaresail.

My rationale behind such a strange mainsail:
1) While shunting, such a sail automatically moves it’s centre of effort a considerable distance forward (from stern towards bow), which solves a huge problem of proas regarding the shunting, which usually requires changing/reefing the sails or lifting and lowering rudders/daggerboards to make things controllable and balanced even when you use a rudder for steering (remember that I want my sail plan to be balanced and self-steer without the use of a rudder). By finding the right length of the batten “legs”, I hope to be able to balance the sail plan perfectly, so that I don’t have to even reef the mizzensail when shunting. Also, such a mainsail should be easily usable for abruptly stopping the boat during shunting, which is a very desirable feature when beating upwind through a very narrow channel, where you don’t want to lose an extra 20 metres going sideways until the boat stops during shunting. And simultaneously with this, I also completely solve the second biggest problem of all proas- the switching between its two rudders while shunting. I simply won’t have any. And Iberian orcas also will not be able to kick my rudder if I don’t even have one, haha.
2) In a single sail I achieve the best of three worlds: the junk-sail’s ease of reefing and trimming (which is especially pronounced during heavy weather), the squaresail’s superior downwind performance,
and the Bermuda rig’s aerofoil shape for efficient upwind work (I am thinking of 8% chamber in the battens).
3) The low aspect ratio of the sail allows me to keep the mast as short as possible (see my point number 1 at the beginning of this post).

Here is a quick sketch of triming of this rig in different points of sail:
IMG_5929.jpeg

I probably also need to little bit explain my obsession with self-steering and steering-with-sails. It’s not that I hate rudders (although I do a little bit), but I have never understood why people design boats with directionally unstable sailplans and then spend the rest of their lives trying to solve the problem which they themselves created- to handsteer or to use windvanes and autopilots- just to stay on that same course which they already chose once (when trimming the sails)... Call me crazy, but I see it as something similarly ridiculous as designing a wine glass without its flat base and then spending the rest of your life trying to hold it upright on a table, because it wants to tip over. And then someone “more clever” comes up with a “genius” idea- he says: “I designed an autopilot which keeps my glass upright on the table without me holding it! Yes, it wanders for about 15° in each direction, and yes, sometimes it still tips over and spills my drink, and yes, it doesn’t work when the wind is too slow, but most of the time it keeps my glass upright without me holding it all the time- what an amazing achievement…” Come on- just design a glass with a flat base, put it on the table and it stays there- that’s how it should be (in my world at least). Why should we create the problem in the first place and then spend our lives constantly solving it??? It is so easy to design sails which stay on your chosen course no matter what point of sail and what angle of heel you have at the moment. You just need a big mainsail which is the main driving power and two smaller sails protruding a considerable distance fore and aft from the boat’s centre of resistance, which you use mostly for steering. And you have to have a sheeting system which allows you a fingertip-control of the trim angle in both directions. That’s it! And you can easily steer with such sails even when you don’t have a rudder. And when you set the course, the boat stays on it, no matter what. And you can use such sails for steering/turning your boat, even if she’s not moving through the water at that moment and therefore the rudder wouldn’t bite. This ability gives you such a confidence and peace of mind when manoeuvering in an overcrowded harbour in fickle winds without engine. I agree that with using a rudder you can squeeze out a bit more extra speed for racing, but I personally don’t care about that, I just want to put my boat on the intended course and to have it keeping the same course for days without me touching anything, even when the wind is so weak that it doesn’t blow out a flame of a candle- the boat stays on course and keeps sailing. Yes, very slowly, but it keeps sailing on the right course, unless the wind direction changes. And it works in such a low boatspeeds were no rudder would be working, let alone the windvane.

And by the way, before anyone jumps on me, saying that I’m just daydreaming, and the steering with sails only is not realistically possible, I probably should add here that I have already done it a lot. Many years ago I was experimenting with steering by sails, and then I happened to lose my rudder in one bad storm. But I just kept on sailing without the rudder. My stern looked a bit weird with the rudder hinges in place, but no rudder in them. People in my local fishing harbour were shaking their heads when looking at me, but I just kept enjoying my sailing for almost half a year like that. And that happened in Irish Sea with all it’s funny weather and strong tidal currents, and it included manoeuvering without engine in tight spaces like cramped fishing harbours, tidal runs full of dangerous rocks etc. And I never felt any need for a rudder. After almost half a year of such sailing I finally made a new rudder, because I thought it’s a good thing to have in case of an emergency. But I still kept my tiller lashed amidships, and I never remember using it for the next couple years of sailing until I sold the boat. It is so satisfying to see your boat listening to you and keeping the course herself like a train on its tracks during all the gusts and waves and everything, while you enjoy your life on board.

Please let me know if you have any useful thoughts and comments about all this. I am reading your every comment, and I am honestly open to hear any unpleasant truths which you might see while I don’t. That’s the only reason for me starting this thread. I could build what I intend, without telling anyone about it, but I know that there might be things which someone else might point out to me, which would convince me to change my design before I start welding any heavy steel plates together. The only thing- please explain WHY do you think something wouldn’t work as I expect. If you don’t give any rational reasoning, but simply shout that it’s a stupid idea, then I treat you as a background noise, which I have to filter out while listening for any useful input from people who know more than I do. Or just simply happened to notice something which I didn’t.

Thank you again, and all the best of luck for everybody of you!

Artis,
www.artis.guru
 
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what u want me to say

you have 13 tonnes of weight,,, huge frontal area... lots of drag... about 200 square feet of sail area...huge draught,, ,u cant go anywhere... you are not going to do 2 knots,,, you will be lucky to do 0.5 knots... so much drag.. so little sail area... still dont understand what on earth u want to do with it,,, it is just truly truly terrible,,, get another hobby,, bee keeping,, pottery,,, oil painting,.. rock climbing,,, anything..
 
I will cheerfully and enthusiastically endorse all the 'negative' comments above about your design - these comments are offered by posters who have a LOT of experience of boat design and operation. Please take heed of them.
That thing looks to me to be a floating (I hope it will at least float when you first launch it) death trap, and that underwater 'bedroom' will quickly be transformed into an aquatic coffin the moment something goes pear shaped, or you take a wave on board that breaches this compartment.

This small sailing boat in the two links below is about on par with your design for dangerous eccentricity - thankfully (in a way) the boat started taking on water before he got too far, and he was rescued, but the boat was terminally damaged in the process.

Dad's mission to sail from Canada to Cornwall fails on day one https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/dads-mission-sail-canada-cornwall-8479401
 
Setting sail and arriving are the crucial and even dangerous moments.

The author imagines that his creation is in the middle of a great ocean, and he imagines it sailing, although we know that it is a drifting buoy. But let's leave this nuance aside and concentrate on the fundamentals: he needs a tugboat to take him away from the coast and he needs someone to pick him up in the middle of the sea and take him to his destination.

On the other hand, one of the best ways to reduce "Roll" is Speed.

A small light sailboat (150 D/L) and with 20-30 square meters of sail per Ton flies beautifully.

Chaining yourself to a dangerous Buoy-Cell/Dungeon drifting is certainly a peculiar idea.
 
Rule of Saint Benedict

Rule of Saint Benedict - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Saint_Benedict

Start (1,1) as follows

It is known that there are four types of monks: (1) those who live under one rule and one abbot (2) those who live alone (3) those who live in pairs (4) the "girovagos" (which sounds in Latin languages like loitering bums) who move from convent to convent.

Gyrovague - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrovague

Webb Chiles and Roger Taylor ...
they speak of sailing as entering a monastery, and the sailor is a monk.

So here we have two issues to discuss: whether to admit women into the monastery and, on the other hand, the design of the cells.
 
I understand very well that sensitive souls feel the desire to turn away from a world that on a large scale is evil and perverse and agitated by collective delusions that the first christians called "evil spirits" in archaic Mediterranean language of the first century and that today we would perhaps call 'mental software' or something like that. Max Weber said that the intuition of the early christians was accurate in this beautiful asteroid and painful world.

But ... whatever the spiritual or mental motives behind this peculiarity may be ... chaining yourself to a twelve-ton buoy-dungeon is not a good idea.

And to put a woman in the buoy is simple unconsciousness and youthful fieriness.
 
You are getting sound advice based on hard earned knowledge of physics, and you are ignoring it. You are far better off getting your partner acclimatised with motion over a period of time than wasting your time and money on a project that will not fulfill your wishes. As for Yrvind, you might take note that his last 2 boats did not fulfill his requirements either, despite, or perhaps because of, his "next boat" mentality. His Exlex can get away with small sail area as he has limited wetted surface.

Maybe consider a plywood catamaran if you have a small budget. People get seasick on 30,000 ton ships, your 13 tons is meaningless in that aspect.
 
The mainsail is something very unusual which I recently came up with. It is like a cross between a squaresail and a Chinese junk sail, but with a big difference of the battens being kept at a considerable distance away from mast by “legs” (slightly similar to a gaff with its throat).
The profile of the sail resembles both the profile of Maltese Falcon's sails, and those of the elliptical square sail described in an AYRS booklet in the 1970, and the related Bolger sail:
ayrs-sail.jpg

Fitting such a sail with braces modelled on junk rig sheeting is pretty logical. Those legs will play merry hell with reefing, though, because unless you do something clever you have not yet explained, the battens will rise above or below the jaws around the mast when you raise or lower them, and tend to bind. Perhaps having very loose parrels will prevent binding. In any case, the centre of pressure will be ahead of the centre of sail, which you identified a feature when it comes to balancing sail plan and lateral plan, but it is rather a bug if you want to depower the rig in a hurry. You must actively pull on the windward brace to depower such a sail, and the legs will only increase the power you need.

Also, such a mainsail should be easily usable for abruptly stopping the boat during shunting, which is a very desirable feature when beating upwind through a very narrow channel, where you don’t want to lose an extra 20 metres going sideways until the boat stops during shunting.

Sails resembling what you propose have been used on proas, and their being powered up through a shunt is not a good trait. Your boat may not capsize, but it will go sideways more than if the sail were depowered, but took the same time to get on the other tack. You would have to hope that you can move the sail faster than one that keeps its leading edge in the wind, and that quicker reversal will make up for going sideways more.

It is so easy to design sails which stay on your chosen course no matter what point of sail and what angle of heel you have at the moment. You just need a big mainsail which is the main driving power and two smaller sails protruding a considerable distance fore and aft from the boat’s centre of resistance, which you use mostly for steering. And you have to have a sheeting system which allows you a fingertip-control of the trim angle in both directions. That’s it!

You might be interested in Fenger's rudderless canoe Yakaboo: Fenger/Alone in the Caribbean/Contents http://www.thecheappages.com/alone_fenger/ That boat tacked, though, it didn't shunt, and it had a board that could be moved fore and aft.

You want to propel your craft with a yuloh. I found I could control a 500kg boat, in tight quarters, with a yuloh in a bit over 15 knots. 3.5 tons I could control without wind, but not with wind and a slow current in tight quarters. You will have nearly 13 tons, and a lot more wetted surface area. What's more, both the boats I moved with a yuloh kept a stable course when coasting. I don't think yours will. The centre of gravity is necessarily in the centre of the boat. The centre of pressure will be ahead of the centre of gravity as soon as you start moving. You will have to actively keep the boat on course at all times.

Before you start welding, I encourage you to build a 1:5 scale model to test whether the boat moves as expected. If that is to your satisfaction, a roughly 1:2 scale model should give you just enough space to stand in it to your lower ribs. If all other volume is either water ballast or watertight compartments, that vessel should not sink even if that cockpit is completely flooded. If the scale is a bit less than 1:2, you can build the hull out of one standard-sized plywood sheet for each side. Without compound curves, it would be simple to build. You can propel it with a yuloh and see whether it behaves as you expect, or as I expect.

My personal opinion is that this concept is not the best way to achieve your requirements, but exactly because the concept is so unusual, I would love to see empirical data on how it works. As one of the editors of the journal of the Amateur Yacht Research Society, I can even offer you publication of your results, provided only that your experiments are responsible. As an educational charity, we cannot encourage people to do what is likely to endanger them, or those who set out to rescue them.
 
H
[...]
About the vertical acceleration forces that upset the brain. Are you really sure that 13 tons of steel with only 3.94m² of combined waterplane area (2.76m² for the main hull and 1.18m² for the outrigger float) can have more of a vertical acceleration in waves than what we have when we are running or jumping? That would mean that the boat should be dropping down so fast that at times we would lose gravity and start flying in the saloon, and even that would be exactly the same, as when we run (when we are also flying between the steps)… And nobody has ever gotten seasick from running…
I only mentioned the acceleration in relation to heave. What your brain will tell you about the position and orientation of your body is the result of more complex woven sensorium. The visual sense is the most important of them. When you are running you normally see the ground and a horizon probably also some walls or trees. These are optical orientational anchors for what is vertical or level. And your brain will compare the directions of acceleration coming from inner ear to the sight of eyes. In a boat in heavy sea state you have no horizon, no level ground no vertical walls.
 
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I've been on holiday without my log in credentials so haven't been able to comment but have given this project some thought.

First Robert Bieglar beat me to the punch on two essential items.

1. Build a model and test it. Scale is an issue too small and no useful information is forthcoming, at a certain point the model will be so big (heavy) that diminishing returns really kick it.
2. Mock up the living quarters and stay there for a few days.

Out of sequence in thoughts but I disagree with Roberts comments on the AYRS, Bolger, BiAxial... whatever. I've invested a lot of time and effort on the thing and have surrendered. When it's good it is very good when it's bad it's horrible. Best I ever did was good less than 10% of the time.

Hydrodynamics.
As much as I love proas (I'm currently building my sixth), I don't think a proa is the best approach in this case. My concern is primarily directional stability, its like trying to paddle half of a coracle. Rather go in one direction with a fin more like a tropical fish or an old U control combat flying wing.
The balance between wave drag and skin friction is going to be wildly different than a more conventional craft but may be a non issue, the balance between all the factors involved is way outside the normal envelope.
That being said some things are immutable, displacement rules, Archimedes insight still holds true. I'd lean towards minimalist weight and then play with ballast ratios once I had some data from model test, The greater the distance between center of buoyancy and center of gravity the better, even to the point of having ballast lowered in deeper water.

Aerodynamics.

IMO, forget soft sails especially an AYRS type. Saildrones are out there in all possible conditions and continue to function.

Miscellaneous.

Access to stores look to be a problem.
Ventilation's been mentioned.
The whole dynamics of an extruded shape low waterplane area deeply ballasted craft is beyond me; How much freeboard is best?

I wish you the best in this endeavor, I admire out of the box thinking and projects especially when they end up working which I assure will require lot of effort.
 
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Some very smart sailors have blasted the idea of a "boat" like that. They have told the OP, at length, why it is a bad idea.
Please do not continue with this madcap notion. Forgive me and the rest of us for urging you to forget the whole, terribly flawed, concept.
 
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