Unstayed carbon fiber mast on cruising catamaran?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Nico Crispi, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. pogo
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    pogo ingenious dilletante

    Yessa, but....
    What do you want ?
    The lightest, fastest solution ,
    or a modest, easy handable , fast enough cruising solution ?

    Please remember the headline of this thread.
     
  2. pogo
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    pogo ingenious dilletante


    Ja, nee, is' schon klar....

    I don't wanna figure out... don't wanna feed frogs 4 snakes...don't wanna pull ( a) nominal data related ( dogmatic?) pinhead(s) out of the sand...

    Sorry.

    I am too old 4 such a käsekuchen.

    We wanna talk about cruising.--unstayed mast(s).
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  3. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    True and I think he is going for a Trimaran so it would work but I hear the Biplane rig is very easy to sail as well and gets you upwind performance which could be an issue on the Tri with a single unstayed mast... even though it wasn't on the monohulls - WylieCat.
     
  4. Barra
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    Barra Junior Member

    Thats FUNNY.

    Every dog has its day :)

    Yves Parlier’s hydro-glider: resting in peace in Gujan-Mestras - Invisible Bordeaux http://invisiblebordeaux.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/yves-parliers-hydro-glider-resting-in.html

    "However, pitted against trimarans the boat failed to perform on the world’s stage. Parlier finished four days behind winner Michel Desjoyaux in the 2004 Transat race, and came last in that year’s Quebec-Saint Malo race. The sailor then chose to focus on individual speed records but failed to break any throughout the whole of 2005 – although he did manage to capsize off the Canary Islands in April."

    Through persistence , they finally lucked out on a couple of weather windows and got a couple of record runs.

    Hence "Every dog has its day"
     
  5. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    I can't find anything via the SA search function. Can you let me know where this was posted, please.
    Ta
     
  6. UpOnStands
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    UpOnStands Senior Member

    this seems to be the link you need
    bi rig for a beach catamaran? http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/156685-bi-rig-for-a-beach-catamaran/
    Steve Clark does not provide any link to public data, just that statement.
    Here is a comment of more value to cruisers
    "hi 1981 nacra5.2, A few years ago I built a 45' bi rig cat so I might be able to give you a few opinions on their performance. My rigs definitely do cast a large shadow of about 20 deg. either side of a beam reach where you actually feel the horsepower cut in half. This is ok for a cruising boat (or a fart about beach cat) as you just have to come up to a close reach for a while then go broad to get to your destination (kind of like gybing downwind without actually gybing) but in a racing situation I think you would get left behind by other similarly powered boats on a beam reach.(my rigs have jibs on balestron booms so would cast a larger shadow than mainsail only rigs). I love every thing else about the rigs, especially close reaching where they definitely create more power than single rigs.(probably due to the extra luff length) Running square and broad they are a dream (especially if you have free standing masts) as they can be let out way further and even weather cocked in squally conditions. Windward work at launching was pretty mediocre but after setting up some tweekers and trim controls over the years we have improved it to be very acceptable. I think the best advantage of these rigs is the low centre of effort which makes for very relaxed cruising, cheers"
    he b gb.
    post here bi rig for a beach catamaran? http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/156685-bi-rig-for-a-beach-catamaran/&do=findComment&comment=4554612

    Believe this is the 45' cat referred to above.
    Cactus Island
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  7. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    The question is how fast ...

    Some people might think how ineffective this rig could be, as the windward sails might be sometimes blanketing the leeward rig. This is not so. On fast multihulls, such as Hydraplaneur- even in light or medium air, the apparent wind generated brings the wind far forward , even when running deep. This unique phenomenon avoids the leeward rig being shadowed by the windward rig. - Farewell Archimedes | Catamaran Dealer http://www.aeroyacht.com/2009/03/12/farewell-archimedes/
     
  8. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Jorge

    I don't think calling people who disagree with you pinheads is broad minded. As I think I wrote, I have spent a fair bit of time sailing and racing. I have pretty well honed racing techniques on apparent wind dinghies and cats. The 90 degree angle is basically where you steer to, to get a good balance of speed and angle - VMG to the bottom mark. Get a skiff or Nacra or Hobie and get racing. Learn about apparent wind sailing and have finessing the angles, it is a world to investigate.

    For those who think that a well trimmed rig does not have any effect on a leeward boat I urge you to get flat out on the wire under kite on any skiff and get passed close by the windward - when the windward boat passes by your apparent you will become very wet as the boat rolls to windward. I have done it a few times.

    Sure, if you get a really fast cat, like the AC cats, the apparent stays way forward. The AC cats had the apparent at about 22 degrees going to about 26 IIRC but I am sure this will not be the case in a typical cruising cat. Hydroptere is a great design but she has little to do with boats that run deep angles.

    Bi plane rigs might be great. If so they will prove themselves as the owners become great advocates for them. They have had more than 10 years since the Radical Bay and they are still sparse on the ground and owners have not been great at spruiking their benefits - maybe there is a reason for this. Arthur Piver got trimarans from beach toys to round the world girdlers in 8 years. We need to hear from more owners.
     
  9. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Oh that is cute! Where did I call anyone a pinhead? I am posting what I find online, true experiences with biplane rigs as opposed to opinions based on supposition, or references to threads which can't be found.
     
  10. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    My bad , it was Pogo, not Jorge.

    We need people who have sailed them to talk about biplane rigs. I don't know if anyone on this thread has done so, so we all are in the dark somewhat.
     
  11. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    ahhh I never saw that post,

    My post number 35 quotes Shionning on the blanket issue and more. He pretty much says, just reef the windward sail to maintain speed. He says a few other things very pro Biplane, if you missed that post, check it out, I doubt he is going to make biased false remarks and tarnish his reputation.
     
  12. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I've been playing around with sketches for the fore and aft offset biplane ketch rig I suggested and it doesn't look too bad on paper. For stock biplane locations I'd think cats with more beam would have less interference. The weight penalty of beam is reduced somewhat by the beams only having to cope with connective loads and not mast compression.
     
  13. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Are you talking about like the proa layout or one on each hull fore and aft. I wonder what RD has to say about that
     
  14. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    One each hull, main mast on one, mizzen om the other. The only interference would be on the mizzen side broad reach but as the mizzen is smaller it shouldn't completely blanket the main, in fact it does what was suggested about reefing the windward main on the stock biplane configuration. It's different but once you start looking at the jib possibilities it really gets interesting.
     

  15. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    I don't have the experience to comment on that, I just happen to be looking for a solution for my own cat which it looks like it's going to be a tall unstayed biplane.

    ... But my natural question would be ... with the 2 equal masts, each being reefable, why the mizzen. You would lose the benefit of big main sails on all other points of sail. But like I said I am probably missing the point.
     
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