UNESCO joins Energy Observer, the first hydrogen ship

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by schakel, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. schakel
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    schakel environmental project Msc

    Some photos of the interior: Luxurious enough to my standards.:) energy observer interiour 2.jpg energy observer interiour 3.jpg
    energy observer interiour.jpg
     
  2. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Rich man's toy.

    Still no data on the energy usage / cost.

    A lot of hot air and wishful thinking.

    If it actually works (or is even close) then lets hear about it.
     
  3. schakel
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    schakel environmental project Msc

    Here she sails (Or sunsailing as I call it) in front of the coast of Dune du Pilat.
    and almost every research project is a richman's toy,
    Solar cars, formula 1 , Volvo Ocean Racers and the new 75 foot america's cup monohulls.
    Dune of Pilat - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_of_Pilat
    Dune du Pilat France.PNG
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    No one ever said they wouldn't be able to make it float, at a modest speed.
    "Make it work" means demonstrate hydrogen generation and use which would be reasonably practical.

    "People are how you treat them and that's only half true". That includes twisting words to support your agenda when you well know what was meant because of previous messages.

    Where is the data?
     
  5. schakel
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    schakel environmental project Msc

    Dear mr. Upchurch,

    I am not part of their project. I sended them the request for information and specifications you asked for and I will try to do this again.
    I must say: I have some experience in engineering with the french and they are used to keep the specs to themselves. Not a lot I can do about it.
    But when one is real polite they might be able to help us. I'll send them a copy of this message.

    "People are how you treat them and that's only half true" is not twisting words to support agendas but philosophy;
    Like holding yourself a mirror.
    When you smile at the world, the world will smile back, or at least you have more chance in that then always being grumpy.
    That's philosophy.
     
  6. schakel
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    schakel environmental project Msc

    I sended them the following:

    Dear sir,
    I am a great fan of your project but as an engineer I am curious about the technical data of your vessel,
    Area of solar cells, efficiency solar to electricity. Electrical voltage and watts Output, technical schemes, Electrolyses graphs, Storage capacity of Hydrogen. Output of the gas engines.
    Total propelling force and all that kind of data.
    Kind regards,

    My real name Msc.
    Environmental project engineer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  7. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Schakel,

    I don't expect you to be responsible for the data, or the project.
    But you seem to keep pushing it as something worthwhile.
    I'm just going to keep reacting until there is something of value reported here.
    Besides pretty pictures.

    You don't have to respond or take responsibility.
     
    schakel likes this.
  8. tananaBrian
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    tananaBrian Junior Member

    I once heard about a research company in Oregon (USA) that was approaching a final solution for making hydrogen pellets that could be transported, then somehow gasified and used for fuel. My first thought was, hey, with those perpetual highwinds on the SW coast of Greenland, it seems that you could use the 'free' electrical energy from wind and electrolysis to get hydrogen from the nearby seawater, pelletize it and ship it world-wide as fuel, and voila! You'd have it! But I haven't heard anything since and can't remember who that was.... Or if anyone has achieved the ability to store, ship, and utilize hydrogen in some other form than gas (which can't be liquified and forming such a tiny molecule, leaks out of everything if stored for long). Anyone?
     
  9. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    It can be liquefied and is- low temps and high pressures. The problem is efficiency and safety.
    Round trip efficiency of hydrogen is about 30%.
    Round trip efficiency of a good battery is close to 90%.
    This is dilemma... the large difference is the energy density between the 2 where the stored energy in hydrogen is 186 times more than a lithium battery - which means it has advanatges for mobile applications such as vehicles and boats, perhaps even aircraft.
     
  10. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    HFCV-v-EV-Better-Place-Fig1-1024x216.jpg
    Yes that's true for the traditional forms of Hydrogen, BUT

    "It shows that ammonia contains twice as much
    hydrogen energy as pure hydrogen (see "H2 Density" column),
    NH3 Fuel Association https://nh3fuelassociation.org/"
    Chart.gif s much
     
  11. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Rather than read through all that- what is current round trip efficiency of an ammonia system? Ie. Producing the ammonia from am energy source such as wind or solar, and then converting back to energy thats doing work?
     
  12. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    You can just look at the green graph. At the bottom line, Hydrogen is 9.9 Megajoules per litre, (H2 density of 70.)

    At the top line, Ammonia is 17.1 MegaJoules per litre, ( H2 density of 136 ( nearly double))

    So Ammonia has the potential to get up around 2/3 rds Battery round trip efficiency and KM travelled per KwH, compared to other Hydrogen sources.

    Couple that to ease and speed of distribution, more fuel space scalability and portability, its got to be a potential frontrunner.
     
  13. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Does any of that have any bearing on its efficiency? Total efficiency is about energy comversion not just density. So ita needs to account for total energy input to create the NH3. Then measure the total energy output when the NH3 is converted to H2 and used up in whatever apparatus to get work done or produce electrical KWH output from a generator and its losses also. This is why batteries have high round trip efficiency, theres no mechanical losses in devices both ways...
     
  14. schakel
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    schakel environmental project Msc

    Mr Upchurch,

    The following was send to the Facebook site of the energy observer:

    Madames et messieur,
    J'écris c'est annonce en anglais parce mon français n'est pas a le niveau de language technicique.

    I am part of boat design.net as a forum member and I opened a thread about your hydrogen ship.
    It is asked by several members of this group, who are all professional engineers, that we are interested in the specifications and technical drawings of your public research vessel.

    There are thousand technical data to extract from the energy observer and I can name you several:
    Efficiency, range and speed of the vessel. Maximum amount of wind in which can propepell itself. Behaviour in waves, Area of solar cells, efficiency solar to electricity. Electrical voltage and watts Output, technical schemes, Electrolyses graphs, Storage capacity of Hydrogen. Output of the gas engines.
    Total propelling force and all that kind of data.

    We are really looking forward to more information.

    Kind Regards,

    Ir. A.J.M. my real name Msc.
    Environmental project engineer

    In the message that folowed, I shared this message directly on the main Facebook page, The following was said:
    The system adminstrator will let me know whether the message I send wil be displayed or not.

    https://www.boatdesign.net/…/unesco-joins-energy-observer-…/
     

  15. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    CEA-tech Liten is the main technical partner of Energy Observer. CEA stands for "Commissariat à l'Energie Atomique", firstly focused on atomic energy but now working widely on all alternative energy technologies including renewables. A big and respectful public company, 14000 researchers/Engineers.

    CEA-tech Liten is the department in charge of these alternative technologies and advanced materials, in particular hydrogen production and storage, fuel cells :
    Welcome http://liten.cea.fr/cea-tech/liten/en/

    Energy observer is a demonstrator among others to confront the lab edge research to some real life application :
    Le CEA architecte énergétique d’Energy Observer : des technologies de pointe pour un projet innovant http://www.cea.fr/presse/Pages/actualites-communiques/energies/cea-energy-observer-architecte-energie-technologie.aspx
    Le catamaran Energy Observer http://www.cea.fr/Pages/domaines-recherche/energies/energies-renouvelables/recherches-CEA-energy-observer.aspx

    Dear Schakel, for a contact with technical questions " from engineer to engineer" (and in English, no problem) , I recommend you this link :
    Contact Liten http://liten.cea.fr/cea-tech/liten/en/Pages/Contact-Form.aspx
     
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