ultimate 20 to 26' bouy racer

Here is a fun thought experiment:

What would the ultimate 24' ish single handed bouy racer look like?
My favorite monohulls in this size range are:


Phuket sport 8
Open 750
Stealth 8 meter

Shaw and thompson also get an honorable mention...

I was thinking of starting with an open 750, and increasing the draft 2 to 3 feet for additional righting moment and adding an asym launch and retrieval system similar to the seascape 18.

Any other ideas?

 

For around the buoy racing I like slow ,tactical boats that allow you to use your knowlegde of the race triangle.. Speedsters are only fun, straight lining it, at sea.

 

It doesn't matter as long as they are all the same. Ideally, crews would have to change boats to make it an even playing field.

 

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A slightly smaller version of the Quant 28 gets my vote. It is a high performance raceboat using DSS and from what I understand it's a blast to sail.
And, oh yeah: very, very fast-which does matter...
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/quant-28-foil-assist-keelboat-dss-38421.html

PS- the extra RM from DSS is ideal for a singlehander. The rig would have to be modified-maybe-a catboat type rig or similar with a self tending jib and maybe a ruler furling asy left up ala the Weta. Or- the Viper has a nice spin launch system with a trough behind the forestay and a roller-see pix below. Gets the spinnaker tube off the deck. If I were starting from scratch I might consider putting the trough ahead of the forestay.
Which reminds me: why not a multi?
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Pictures,L to R- 1-3=Quant 28, 4= Viper showing location of spinnaker trough-you can just see the roller that makes dousing the sail significantly easier :

click on image;

 

The fact that there will be no unanimous verdict on this proposal is a good example of why it won't work. Some clubs manage to hold on to a single class for a long time but but most don't. Those that do tend to follow Micheal's formula more than the latest go fast.

 

Gee Doug...nice boat !! How would you ever sail it, or any 20 some footer singlehanded ???? What round the bouys club class do you race in ?

The idea of a 20 something foot singlehand round the bouy racers just doesnt sound appealing.

Might as well get a real boat... a Mini transat or Figaro and sail in club handicap class.

 

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Sounds very appealing to me, Michael-its all in how you set it up. The DSS system allows tremendous extra RM for very little extra weight-it is an ideal system for a singlehander that might be short on righting moment. Any design in this range that is primarily a single hander will have to be designed from the get go as such or modified to make it feasible.
I don't race in any "club class"(but I grew up doing so) but didn't get the impression thats what Raps was looking for.
By the way, a Mini Transat is only 21' ! And one of the Protos is being equipped with DSS....... They race "round the buoys" in some venues, I think.
Remember, word "Ultimate" was used to describe this boat in the first post-not "club racer"......

 

Problem is that "Ultimate" means different things to different people. Doug's inflexible interpretation is that Ultimate means cost-no-object, effort-no-object maximum speed in perfect condition boat (hardware). Other people interpret Ultimate to mean the platform on which you can most accurately determine the best person racing (software), eliminating the boat design, expense and maximum speed from the list of variables.

I'm personally more sympathetic to the second interpretation, as the size of one's wallet should have no bearing on measuring a person's ability. Sailing is however well rooted in wallet size contests, and many "champions" win by spending more.

Level playing fields are a key to success in our sport from a club membership, racing program and future point of view. The whole point of the first interpretation of "Ultimate" is the constant arms race contest to re-define the playing field and make it as uneven as possible.

Realistically, real sport is a contest of the participants whereas chasing records is a contest of engineering, design, money and specialisation.

If we are answering the original question which was referring to ultimate buoy racing, the most appropriate response in my opinion is a one-design class around 8 meters in length, regardless of how low it's Portsmouth rating is.

If the original question was poorly worded and the poster was asking about the "fastest" boat in this market segment around buoys, that is an entirely different issue.

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CutOnce

 

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That is flat untrue! My response was directly to the original posters request for ideas on the "ultimate" round the bouy's
SINGLEHANDER around 24' LOA. My recommendation was for a smaller version of the Quant 28 set up to be a singlehander. The use of DSS on a singlehander of that size is probably the least expensive alternative to the extra RM required of such a boat. It allows a shorter lighter, less costly keel to be used as well as a less expensive vehicle and trailer compared to a 24' singlehander using "normal" means for RM. It is actually the most economical choice compared to any other boat I've seen mentioned in addition to probably having higher performance due to the lighter weight and substantial RM from DSS.
I agree that one-design racing of such a boat would be a lot of fun but on those occaisons where open class racing was all there was it would be able to compete very well.

 

Probably the most expensive cost will be modifying the helmsman's arms into Transformer like, vise grip tipped hydraulic rams, for working the main on screaming reaches

 

Well, if your well-documented history is any indicator of reality your preferences and selections to date are in conflict with your flamboyant theatrical outrage. Singlehanders demand simplicity and ease of operation, not complexity, added steps to every manoeuvre and more power.

By selecting DSS, you are consciously opting for a design that supports higher power for higher performance when compared to a typical fixed keelboat of the length. You are choosing performance potential over simplicity. QED. You are choosing higher expense for higher performance over cheaper, simpler solutions. QED. You are choosing for higher complexity of manoeuvres over typical designs (tacking/gybing the DSS board). QED.

I don't know where you sail (if at all now) or what club you are a member of but here in North America open class (Portsmouth) races are a tiny fraction of the action compared to one design races. PHRF races with ratings are certainly not accepted as an equally fair gauge of helm skill when compared to one design races.

Your statement regarding DSS as the most economical option is completely unsupported and doubtful. DSS costs money - in licensing the technology, in the higher cost build and in the control systems to make it function. Yes, DSS may allow a smaller boat to PERFORM higher than a comparable boat of the same length without the technology, but that doesn't make it cheaper than the un-equipped boat.

I'm not questioning your personal preference, that is a matter of opinion and up to the reader to decide - but I am questioning the original poster's request. If the original poster wants the fastest thing around the buoys, your choice is a potentially good one. If they are hoping for competitive racing and people to race with and measure their progress against, your choice may not be appropriate.

See? It is possible to objectively comment without the drama queen outrage, red ink or accusations of untruth. Maybe you can learn something.

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CutOnce

 

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1) a 24' singlehander will demand more RM than a "normal" 24 footer that uses crew weight for ballast( like a Melges 24, for example). There is no better system for adding RM without adding weight than DSS. Any other method of adding RM would add weight and draft making the transport of such a boat significantly more costly than transporting the lighter DSS boat.
2) I am amazed that no one has offered another boat that can meet the objectives of an "ultimate 24' singlehander buoy racing boat". It is apparently so problematical that the definition of what "ultimate" is is somehow a block to answering the OP's mind quiz!
I offered a solution that would fit most definitions of "ultimate" including ultimate performance, ultimate cost effectiveness for the whole package, ultimate fun as a one-design race boat, ultimate fun in open class racing, ultimate ease of trailerability. When the Open 60 with a canting keel and twin curved lifting foils can be singlehanded across oceans and 21' high performance boats with the same gear are singlehanded across oceans it seems reasonable to conclude that a 24 footer could be designed from scratch to be equally suitable for singlehanding around any buoys anywhere.
According to the people who have done it sliding a DSS foil athwhartship is far,far easier than canting a keel and raising and lowering a daggerboard every time you tack(Open 60 and 21' Mini).
Setting up the sail controls properly would give the skipper only one line to pull every tack- far less workload than on the proven singlehanders I've just mentioned.
In otherwords, the Ultimate 24' singlehander......

 

Actually I like Doug's choice of boat. Innovative and fast. Its just not what I consider a single handed round the buoys racer. Perhap 16ft.

 

The simpler choice is to focus on designs that do NOT need additional righting moment to sail well. There is no way a marginally ballasted high performance planing keel boat like a Melges 24 is suitable for singlehanding in all conditions normally encountered in round the buoys racing.

If I were hunting for a single hand keel boat for this type of racing, I'd look for self-tacking jib (not genoa or larger). I'd look for a asymmetrical spinnaker with launch tube & one line halyard/retrieval. I'd look for a stiff bulb keel design (bolted down, but that could be raised for trailering). I'd look for roller furling on the jib. I'd look for a loose foot main with one or two sets of reef points. I'd look for one with a simple reliable auxiliary motor and lift-able rudder. I'd look for one with no running backstays that would require action to tack. My personal target would be something like a Viper with perhaps a little more bulb to compensate for the lack of warm bodies on the rail. Any more than that size wise gets to be a lot of work to handle and may require more strength than I'd be willing to promise in ugly conditions.

You seem to have missed the point questioning the original poster's understanding about the word "Ultimate". Oh, well SSDD. I'm not amazed at all that few have proposed examples because the request is unclear as to what the original poster's desires are.

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CutOnce

 

Gee..a single handed round the cans boat would have no foresails. One man, one tiller, one sheet.