Twenty foot container batteries

Discussion in 'Electric Propulsion' started by alan craig, Sep 7, 2021.

  1. alan craig
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    alan craig Senior Member

  2. BlueBell
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    BlueBell "Whatever..."

    Interesting article, thank you Alan.

    The opening sentence was a bad sign for credibility though.
    And as much as I'd like to see this concept succeed, I first question how much "greener" it really is.
    Consider where the electricity comes from to charge the battery. Coal?
    The carbon and pollution issues around making and disposing of batteries.

    Realist or cynic, you be the Judge.

    BB
     
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  3. DogCavalry
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    DogCavalry I aim to misbehave.

    Indeed. The opening sentence is a lie. They certainly have emissions, but a numerical analysis shows their emissions per kg/km delivered are minuscule. It's a stunt to fleece well meaning investors. Better to put the money into, for example, forest floor duff carbonization technology through optimized pyrolysis.
     
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  4. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Ah, but it gives the investors a huge 'feel good factor' that they are helping to save the world and earn some carbon tax credits (perhaps against their own gas guzzlers?) with a cute little ship that is very endearing - so then they will fling more money at the project........ and then one day finally cotton on as to what is really happening. :)
     
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  5. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    So as a very rough comparison, the assembly is equivalent to about 200 gallons of diesel for a shaft drive, or maybe 225 gallons feeding a genset. How much does cargo capacity get reduced? How much labor cost to swap out the container compared to a yard ape fueling diesel? If it ran 8 hours, that would be a 400 hp cruise - seems a tad small. You'd probably need five or six batteries for each ship in service. Maybe four if daylight operation only.
     
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  6. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Alphenaar is actually quite a large 'small ship' - Marinetraffic mentions that she is 90 m x 11 m.
    They do not mention the gross tonnage or the deadweight, but I am thinking that her deadweight must be in the region of 2,000 tonnes?
    ALPHENAAR (Cargo) Registered in Netherlands - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 0, MMSI 244059204, Call Sign PG4321 https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:5887159/mmsi:244059204/imo:0/vessel:ALPHENAAR

    If you click on 'Show on live map' and then click on 'Past track' it shows her going a long way through a series of very complex canals and back again.
     
  7. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    The ship has 2 Veth L-drives, each 400kW/1500rpm, plus a 478kW steerable bow thruster, so in theory the single 2MW container could power the ship for 2,5h. In reality the canals are speed limited to 6-9km/h (3-5kn) and you don't need 800kW for that. Refueling happens in the normal loading/unloading cycle, it's just another box to load and plug in (no separate diesel ape to pay).
    This model is a solution for a country like the Netherlands or the UK, tight canal network, short distances, speed limit, it's not for running up the Mississippi or the Rhine. It's also perfect for all the tourist boats doing city tours.
     
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  8. DogCavalry
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    DogCavalry I aim to misbehave.

    And how does the Netherlands generate it's power? Carbon per capita is the key.
     
  9. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The best way to deal with energy is balance and robust redundancy.

    If we only depend on oil, we are at their mercy. Same with electric, or coal, or natural gas.

    As consumers, we are all best off when all energy producers compete.

    I installed a pv panel on my boat today. I also have chargers off the engines, but the boat sitting at the dock or anchor would not be dependent upon running gas engines for an hour to charge the house.

    It is smart to use wind to charge a short run cargo ship. It reduces the dependency on outside sources and the nation can say we don't need diesel for every ship.

    Too easy to get caught up in all green or all oil. But solar and wind and oil aren't going away.
     
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  10. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    If I'm commuting to work on my bicycle and fart

    Is it still a zero emissions commute?
     
  11. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The real concern is burning old stuff fast, not burning off new stuff a few hours old!
     
  12. alan craig
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    alan craig Senior Member

    But oil will go away before solar and wind!
    The trouble with journalists is that they like to use the word "green" because it's dramatic, like free energy. We all know that the energy has to come from somewhere but some people won't acknowledge that the renewable proportion is increasing all the time. I don't know how the Dutch make most of their energy but they have some nifty ideas in practise for using it; they have giant greenhouses right next to some power stations and pipe the exhaust and waste heat to it - just what green plants (tomatoes) love; heat, water and CO2.
    Blueknarr, the fart won't make much difference but humans are about 25% efficient, about the same as a gasoline/petrol engine.
     
  13. DogCavalry
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    DogCavalry I aim to misbehave.

    Fallguy, I appreciate your thoughtful advice, but I must pointout that you write, and evidently think, that the USA is literally the entire world. And further that USA is dependent on foreign oil. The US is a net exporter, and is fully petroleum self sufficient. And if your nation actually had a shortage, we'd be happy to sell you lots, because we have oceans of the stuff. We do sell the USA plenty of electricity, because we have plenty of hydroelectric power.

    Alan, oil is highly unlikely to go away. It's the most efficient way to store and transport energy. And despite the legions of starry eyed idealist, and the politicians that lie to them, it's not even theoretically possible to switch to all electric. The grid can't carry that much electricity, and we sure as heck can't generate that much without massive investments in nuclear power. So it's a fantasy. We could certainly use nuclear power to make fuel from CO2 and water, and burn that. Endlessly. But we already have massive environmental damage from copper mining. To double the grid's capacity in time to keep these lying sociopaths promises, we'd have to strip mine half the planet.
     
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  14. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    How is it
    Sociopathy
    To use more electricity?

    Same like telling people Covid is the flu?

    My Mrs has a Tesla and it is quite a car to be honest.

    Have you researched degree heating days versus degree cooling days? Air conditioning uses electricity more; just sayin. How the e- is produced, another story.

    the issue on CO2 isn't that it isn't real, but whether it has major effects, but rabbit holing to climate discussion is wholly unneeded on a forum discussing a really cool way to power boats and a ship container battery is pretty cool...quite a bit of solar could go on top of the container for a bump perhaps as well

    As for me, I never said the world revolved around the US, but since you want to take a balanced statement about world energy and pretend it is something else; my advice I'll offer now is if Canada likes that tar sands oil so much; keep it!

    Solar has a place. The sun makes wind and man been using it to power boats a long time.
     

  15. BlueBell
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    BlueBell "Whatever..."

    DogC, you need to realize it is their entire world.
    According to Harper's Magazine 97.5% of US citizens think everybody else in the world wants to live there, in the USA.
    It's just their mindset. Also that their way is the best and all countries should adopt it.
    It's just the way they think. Suck it up buttercup and stop being so judgemental.
    Besides, I think there is some big change coming their way soon...
     
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