Turmoil in Egypt

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Vulkyn, Feb 5, 2011.

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  1. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    we were very lucky out my way the the last election in Malaysia didnt end up the same
    We all cant believe how restrained the opposition was when the level of fraud was tremendous.
    The polititians got the police to help them.
    Whats happening in Malaysia is slowly but slowly the 3rd world is educating the people so they are slowly making better decisions and in Malyasia they are saying the government that has been there forever is nto doing a good job abd uses religion as a tool when they need to whip up a frenzy.
    They are now in the situation where a Malay will vote for a chinese as they can see its the way forward, sound racist but its just education that is doing that.
    But it never changes 'got islam, got trouble'
     
  2. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Egypt is a third-world country with terrible problems of over-population, illiteracy, and poverty. The idea that it would transition smoothly into something resembling a model democracy was unrealistic. The warring tribes of Europe took many centuries to settle into their present condition of seeming concord, even their American cousins had to have a little civil war of their own before becoming the "United" States in more than just name.
     
  3. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    yes very true its the Christian story from 500 years ago
    of course separating government and religion was the secret and from that point the christian countrys never looked back.
    Religion is just a tool to keep the muppets in control, meaning whoever is incharge to stay in charge.
     
  4. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    The way I see it . . .

    Separation of church and state has taken place very recently in many Western countries and not at all in some of them. Sweden achieved it in 2000, and the English church (as distinct from Irish, Welsh and Scottish churches) is still not formally separated with some secular power remaining through voting rights in the English parliament to this day.

    It's important to recognize that Islamic law was far ahead of many Western states in many respects from medieval times until quite recently, such as property rights for women. It is tempting to see all the problems of the Middle East as stemming from the prevalence of Islam. However, most of the problems seem to originate from extremists twisting the writings of modern Islamic mystics to their own power-seeking purposes, causing Islam to evolve backwards towards its origins as perceived by some.

    There isn't a single ME country successfully practising western-style democracy tha I know of - including in some respects Israel. Most of the ME has been subject to ruthless foreign rulers since Roman times, some countries until well into the 20th century. I don't think the solution is an English style constitutional monarchy such as was attempted in Egypt or a US-inspired democracy such as is being tried in Afghanistan and Iraq and any other form of Western-style practice. The form of government has to come from the people of each country, and will be different for each country and people, just as it is different for each western country. Only this way can a country's government be compatible with the culture of its people.

    It's axiomatic that each ME country wants to compete with modern democracies in efficiency, influence, national pride, cultural self-sufficiency, internal security and external power. It is an Islamically-dominated area and Islamic solutions are seen as desirable by a majority of people and leaders. Just as most European democracies grew from Christian-based and -supported monarchies, so ME governments will not survive without the support for, and recognition of, Islam.

    And that's were the heart of the problem lies.

    From my admittedly limited research, Islamic law (Sharia) seems to lack many of the crucial features of modern (20th century) Western legal systems that are required to harness the full power of people and national economies, such as full equality and protection under the law for women in all respects as for men, and the lack of recognition of legal entities other than actual people which permits the establishment of a limited liability corporation. It's not surprising that it hasn't evolved to embrace modern concepts, as it is hardwired into the basic writings of islam.

    So it's not just the governments and the cultures that must progress, it's the law which for most ME countries is currently enshrined as a religiously-controlled entity rather than a progressive set of rules that are, at least nominally, equal for all and permissive of economic and cultural progress. Equivalent change in western societies has taken centuries; it will be a major achievement if the region achieves anything remotely resembling stability within the lifetime of any of us.
     
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  5. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    the Isle Of Man seems to have a good system as it has existed for 1000 years
     
  6. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Foreign armies washing over the ME did not start with Rome. Before that, Alexander the Great Destroyer, Darius, Cyrus and others did their bit of tyranny.

    Recent history has shown us that being elected democratically does not guarantee the elected one will govern in a democratic way.
    Morsi, Obama, Mussolini and Hitler all took steps to dis-mantle democratic institutions once coming into power.
     
  7. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    IMHO islam has no future as its doesnt have a leader so how can it ever change?
     
  8. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    - it has lots of leaders. Part of the problem as each has a different agenda and many of them act like they regard Islam as a handy tool for achieving their ends . . .
     
  9. wardd
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    wardd Senior Member

    obama?

    oh yes he wants to keep people from voting and have unnecessary ultrasounds
     
  10. erik818
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    erik818 Senior Member

    I don't really see that it's relevant that islam doesn't have a common religious leader. The protestant churches in northern Europe don't have a common leader, and we're doing quite well anyway.

    For democracy to work it's necessary that the governement appointed by the majority rule in a way that can be tolerated by the minority. My take on Egypt is that the govenment wasn't ready to serve as a government or all Egyptians. It might have been incompetent as well, but that's not unique. Democracy doesn't mean that a minority must accept to be oppressed by the majority.

    I hope that Egypt gets a second chance att democracy and finds an acceptable balance between the different groups. If there is no common ground, maybe it's better to split into one islamic republic and one secular republic? Other countries have choosen that solution, sometimes peacefully.

    Erik
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'm very disappointed at the level of misinformation and blatant misunderstanding in political systems and the way a new democracy works shown in this thread.
     
  12. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Par, does anyone really know how a new democracy works or is supposed to work? It's how you get there that's the trick. I don't think there is a single model for the transition any more than there is a single model for the end state. Imposition by outside military force isn't going to work except in specific cases where the population is homogenous in appearance, religion and culture, such as Japan, and Japan's relative homogeneity of religion was a result of murderous repression. of "outside" religions for a century or more.

    It's hard to see how a new democracy can arise like Venus from the waves out of an authoritative and repressive prior form of government, if there is a population of varied interests, religious affiliations, tribes, linguistic groups and/or color, or if resources are distributed non-uniformly, especially when one group has dominated and repressed others. Such a population has had a poor example for all or most of their lives and many have learned only that in future THEY now have a chance to rule the roost. In fact the best hope might be a couple of centuries of domination by another people to get a common cause firmly entrenched.

    Recent democracies for the most part haven't done much better than Egypt AFAIK, and I think Egyptians have displayed great courage and persistence in the face of crushing disappointment. At least they have made a statement for any future Egyptian government to take notice of, that they will not accept a new domination that is democratic in name only. Perhaps we were naive to expect better.

    Indonesia is the only one I can think of that seems to have sustained a trend for open democracy and, like Japan, the reasons for its success can be found in its history. Not only were there in place the economic reforms of its last dictator Suharto - who perhaps could be regarded as a kind of transitional figure between his predecessor Sukarno and the current government - but Indonesia was a democracy before Sukarno so the traditions was there.

    If it is to be done, perhaps South Africa will show us the way, but despite an extraordinary start it's currently a disappointment with repression of internal minority groups despite the expressed wishes of its founder, and it's destroying its economy in the process.
     
  13. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    when the punters have money and increasing standard of living they dont care
    the dictator can **** and pillage and no-one notices
    when the bills come in later then the trouble starts

    Indonesia is spending all its money on subsidising fuel to keep the punters happy, that cant last...
     
  14. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Egypt's significant tourist trade must be taking a hammering from recent events. Last thing they need.
     

  15. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    Egypt's income is 1/3 tourism, 1/3 canal, 1/3 OnG

    The trouble makers attack one of those and they know it brings the government to its knees.
    Tourism is easy just spray a machine gun in a resort( I missed one of those by a week years ago), the others are harder and will attract foreign help.
     
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