conservative vs liberal design

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Stratiegery01, Aug 21, 2006.

  1. Stratiegery01
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 6
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Minnesota, USA

    Stratiegery01 Junior Member

    Hello hello everyone. I am a graduating industrial/marine design student, this being my first post to this website. I have been reading several topics and, forgive me for being blunt, I am disappointed in the lack of “vision” the majority of people are expressing.

    As a student I want to know if my attempts of designing innovative marine vessels are futile. There is no question that the mono-hull, deep V, classic white SeaRay look is going to die, and it’s amazing that such a trend has lasted for 50 years, however most people on this forum seem to be expecting such a design.

    I would like a consensus of what marine designers think the trends are and why the industry keeps going in circles. Is there no hope for creating that new boating experience?
     
  2. Finlander
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 80
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 19
    Location: Europe

    Finlander Junior Member

    back at ya ;)

    What do you propose?

    Are you interested in planing hulls?

    Passagemaker dispacement boats?

    What's your medium: metal, f-glass, carbon fiber?


    For what it's worth, I'm bored with prevailing trends too.
     
  3. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 3,486
    Likes: 97, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 1148
    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    its "only" 20 years back searay came with the midcabin and not 50 but make no mistake, i still like my boat!
    so do the walking by boat lookers that keep giving it compliments. and i must say it has a lot going for it.
    gas is getting more expensive tho and i too am a bit of a out of the box thinker.

    so i do hope new devellopments will eventually result in practical new pleasure boat experiences.
    prototyping, building cost, customer survey's and many other factors play, i think even for brunswick, a role
     
  4. sail-bob
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Sweden

    sail-bob Junior Member

    I am an electrical engineer (and a novis in this subject) and not a marine engineer so I presume my thought doesn't count that much. However, I would assume that it should be you and your collegues who would be the guys coming up with new awesome vessels
    ...you start...
    I would like to see something conceptually new and wind driven...which I can build a protoype of and shall be:
    - Carrying at least 4 people and overnight cabin
    - Easy to construct
    - Low cost
    - Safe
    - Fast
    - Light (Transportable with car)
    - Comply with EU regulations

    Cheers
     
  5. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 3,486
    Likes: 97, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 1148
    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    there are a few smart folding trailerable cat designs i've seen
    5 by 10? sounds allright to me and sleeps 4, easy to construct etc

    a longlong time ago a frend drove his caravan in the water
    (after polyestering the bottom first) didnt have ama's on the roof tho
    for option one WillA also made a sketch meeting your criteria
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 2,321
    Likes: 214, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2281
    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    Lack of vision? Nope...don't see it, at least not on the designer's side. I'm thinking of the cruising catamaran industry, jetskis, sailboards, trampoline day cats. None of those boats/markets existed 50 years ago.

    The conservatism is on the builders/marketers and buyers side. Buyers are not visionaries, all they can do is look around and say "I want one like that". Market folks are the same, they see the competitor’s lineup and say "gee, we could build one like that, but...we'll make it blue!" The builder agrees since it's a "proven concept" so they invest a bazillion dollars in designing and building a copy of the other guys success. Thus we go round and round.

    The successful visionary projects are few, but interesting to study. You have to conceive the product, build a prototype, sell it, build a bunch more, sell them, and only then will the industry look up and say, "hay...let's do that!". And you get nothing. Oh joy.

    To do this you must be willing to starve, work hard, and invest every penny in your vision. You can be successful, but few are willing to sacrifice friends, family, future, and all their money.

    There are a few trends we are just on the cusp of. Power cats are gaining popularity and market presence, but they have a long way to go. Very light and efficient cruisers of all sorts are way out on the horizon yet, but they will come, and be huge. Power trimarans are coming; again they are in total infancy.

    You have lots of work to do, get to it!

    Tad
     
  7. Toot
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 272
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 17
    Location: Chicago

    Toot Senior Member

    Lately, I've been ogling the lines of the Adelie 14/16 and Vagabond 20/23. Clicky Link.... Project: Just Right (scroll down for the Adelie and Vagabonds)

    A neat little pocket cruiser that kind of fits along with your description. I suppose it's not terribly innovative, but it's definitely got a few nice touches and seems to generally meet your criteria. :)


    Cheers
     
  8. Stratiegery01
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 6
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Minnesota, USA

    Stratiegery01 Junior Member

    Tad, I could not agree withe you more. Buyers are ficle and lack the most vision in the industry. Consumers will buy only what you place in front of them, something that is "prooven" but what I am wondering is why the industry itself, which certainly has prooven some innovative designs are better than what exists, is going in circles (not progressing)

    What I meant by the "SeaRay look" is simply the blunt, white gelcoated recreeation boat, not specificaly the company. However, that company I feel is a good example of the industry's slow progression. I remember seeing a thread about the Maltese Falcon on this site. That boat in particular is a huge advancement in the industry, not design. The clipper ship design has been around forever and has prooven its efficiency and style; Ken Freivokh reminded the yachting world that design is not just what is prooven, but what is possible if you just use a little intuition.

    I dont propose to do anything but design what I think the rest of the industry needs, not wants, and I certainly want some assurance that the boating industry would accept that. For about 50 years from when composite fabrication started to come about, boats have gotten cheaper, stronger, lighter, and to a degree more stylish. But I have seen no evidence thus far of why the industry likes a design that's cheaper, less reliable, follows the same template, and when there are much better options out there.

    Why cant us as designers make aware these better materials, hulls, propultion, and ergonomics and all for a much better value?
     
  9. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
    Posts: 3,590
    Likes: 130, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2369
    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    er...yep - what Tad said...
     
  10. duluthboats
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 1,604
    Likes: 57, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 779
    Location: Minneapolis,MN, USA

    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

    LOL!!! Com’on Will, I know you have something to say you started a similar thread. People who buy boats, use them for recreation and for the most part and know even less than I do about good design. St01, you should study very seriously the designs from the time when the highways and waterways were the same. The new designs will evolve from there, with new materials and power sources allowing some creativeness.

    Gary ;D
     
  11. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
    Posts: 3,590
    Likes: 130, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2369
    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    :D Ok Gary, I'll admit that was rather shorthand for what I was really thinking... and I was only just lamenting the way the industry as a whole is squandering the advances made in technology and design innovation (see the thread over at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13292 ) I was hoping to spark some technical debate, but it somehow lost the giist of my original post. No matter, perhaps this will be the place....

    But in general, Tad did hit the nail on the head. There are only two reasons why manufacturers are likely to do anything terribly revolutionary.
    1. It's forced on them - whether that be by regulatory, environmental, or market demands
    2. Because there's a buck in it.
    It costs an extraordinary amount to set up and build a "Searay". The only way you can justify that outlay is if you are pretty damn certain that you'll be able to sell a whole bunch of them. There are empty sheds all over the place where folks have started up to try to sell boats fit for the brave new world...

    The only hope I see, is for open-minded (and deep-pocketed) individuals to custom build the 'boats of the future'. People like Richard and Mary Reddyhoff with their 70ft VSV "MarySlim" ( http://www.multimarine.co.uk/sharp and pointy.html ) This boat is not for the masses, but who knows, perhaps there's another out there that is. With a few succesful examples, a little publicity and some public interest, who knows, maybe one of the big boys will stump up the cash and build the sort of thing that Strateriegy01 (a name would be good) is hoping for....
     
  12. bhnautika
    Joined: Feb 2006
    Posts: 852
    Likes: 57, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 571
    Location: australia

    bhnautika Senior Member

    Because there's a buck in it.
    It costs an extraordinary amount to set up and build a "Searay". The only way you can justify that outlay is if you are pretty damn certain that you'll be able to sell a whole bunch of them. There are empty sheds all over the place where folks have started up to try to sell boats fit for the brave new world...

    This statement by Will really say’s it all and why production boats have to be evolutionary, because one mistake can ruin your market share. Just ask someone in the car industry, if the buying public doesn’t like it, it won’t sell, and in the end that’s the point, making a living. I can’t agree with the argument that the public doesn’t know what it wants and will take anything; it implies a disconnection between the buyer and good design. Being revolutionary or different doesn’t necessarily make it good design, only the market will decide this in the end either now or in the future.
     
  13. sail-bob
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Sweden

    sail-bob Junior Member

    Thanks yipster, Toot,

    yes, I've even seen a photo of the foldable catamaran somewhere...but is it safe?
    The Adelie/Vagabond is very (or equal) what I need but actually aiming for something in between the two (18'), but I agree, a very good base. To be innovative maybe I could build it using a full scale! foam/frigolit form
    covered with epoxy laminated thin layers of carbon fiber sheets (seen in model aeroplane wing construction) - OK...just kidding

    Cheers
     
  14. Poida
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 1,188
    Likes: 51, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 497
    Location: Australia

    Poida Senior Member

    It was the same old, same old at the boat show that I recently attended. I started a thread questioning the lack of innovation and was advised that it because that's what sold.

    What surprised me was the lack of innovation in simply making fittings detachable so seats could be taken out and replaced at will.

    Marketing wise, it is better to get a percentage of the existing market that try and start a new one. This unfortunately means more of the same to get the market share and less innovation.

    Probably the fastest way to knock out a boat is fibreglass, once the mould is made. Unfortunately designs are limited to the shape of the moulds.

    Where innovation is needed therefore is not in the design of the boats but in designing moulds that can easily be changed to suit any shape. Maybe a rubber membrane attached to rods that can be pushed in and out to form the shape.

    Cars have removable hard tops. I haven't seen a boat with one yet. Change from a cruiser to a fishing boat by removing the top.

    If you are starting out in a career of boat design, go to a boat show and talk to as many people as you can, tell them you are do research, which you are, and ask them what they would like in a boat and what do they think is needed. This will give you some idea of what the puplic needs.
     

  15. tom28571
    Joined: Dec 2001
    Posts: 2,474
    Likes: 117, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1728
    Location: Oriental, NC

    tom28571 Senior Member

    What's the hottest American car in the market right now? A retro Mustang and why is that.

    I see more and more powerboats that take from the age of the "classics" in the 40's and 50's. I suspect it's because a lot of people are growing tired of boats that look like running shoes. Not most people but a significant number.

    Performance of sailboats is growing by leaps and bounds but much of it is not readily transferable to many of the cruising or daysailing public. What works well for that group is pretty well established and since sailboats in particular are items of desire and not necessity, most changes are in styling and amenities.

    I think that there are many inovations introduced regularly but most don't grab an audience and, like most TV sitcoms, don't finish the season. Except for a very few big ones, most buiders are very small potatoes with limited resources. Wanting to stay in business, they are not likely to put their money and effort into a high risk venture. The bankruptcy courts are crowded with those that do. Even the low risk and often popular builders come and go.
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.