Trying to design my own cat.

Pretty weird approach. You will save very little money by designing your own boat, and pay a bucketload to have a design that may or may not work, built by "professionals", possibly to very shoddy standards.

I can see that there would be some satisfaction in designing your own (providing it works) but I would sooner pay an experienced designer - even if I had to pay extra to have a "one off" design, and build the thing myself. The so called "professional" boat builders are notorious for trying to cut costs - at the expense of your boat. At least the guy building his own boat is interested in the final outcome - not just his pay packet, and how quickly he can get it down to the nearest pub.

 

Hello Mr. Woods...

You are definitely an authority and I can definitely say that confidently. Everything you have said is valid, but I would like to throw some things out to you in the hopes that you can straighten me out whereever possible... and no, I don't think that you are annoying for documenting your thoughts...I only wish many would do it more often.

I agree with Richard that if he does not consider himself confident to trust his design skills or trade skills that he should delegate those to competent individuals. I also agree that he should design his own even if he requires that a NA/NE or experienced builder complete the job. Why? Well, why do we get second opinions from Doctors even though we are not going to perform a proceedure? Why does an architect have an engineer check his calculations and why does he defer building to the contractor and not build himself? Why does the contractor build from plans he didn't design or approve himself?

My own answer would be that it is because there are those whom are more qualified and experienced than ourselves whom can do so with a fair amount of confidence that their experience and skills will produce a safe and reliable design or build. My other thought is that I would not throw out the baby with the dirty pan-water just because they are both in the pan.

I agree that visualizing strength is easier at the build than at the board but not everyone is capable, or able, or would want to acquire that experience, myself included, before designing, and we should. However, does every NA/NE wait until a similar design is built to witness the visualization before he puts pen to paper or does he rely on his experience and empirical existing data for similar designs? If this were not the case, then first engineering principles must always be the solution wouldn't it? How many designers utilize the ardous laws of first engineering principles even if empirical data exists?

Personally, I think Richard should use the other Richard, that would be you, to have his design assessed and, I believe that any builder will build his design and will contribute his own opinion on changes with justification for them being made AND, I don't think that there would be a builder that would not build a design from anyone that receives your stamp of approval. I also believe that the same is true for any other NA/NE of your calibur and track record.

Richard, the designer and owner is responsible. Not Richard, (you) or the other Richard (builder), would be responsible for a build that is not up to his standards because he designed it and probably did not take advise from others with more experience. But whom is responsible for a design that you drew and the builder built to spec and the owner is still not happy with the end result? The owner of course. So what that your design will only do 19 knots on a beam reach when he expects 20. So what if the design weighed 1# above design displacement because the glass/resin ration for a square foot by the builder was 59/41 instead of 60/40. You don't intend to refund fees and the builder will definitely not rebuild. So the line can only be crossed if the design is "grossly misrepresented by design or negligently built".

With all the disclaimers of warranty, express, implied or otherwise, etc., that our infamous litigators have authored, I'm still shocked anyone could be sued, let alone carry the expense of said litigation. With that said, I don't understand why you would not review a design or believe that any other qualified professional would not do so. Have you never been consulted by another colleague or by amateur in your 30 years? I do however agree, that this planet has become a litigous humanity and expect everyone would be worried.

God forbid I'm offshore and witness a knockdown and make any attempt to save the crew. Will I be sued because a spouse was saved and a life insurance could not be collected or will I be sued because the individual I saved was a NA/NE, whom lost a hand, and always believed he should not live if he couldn't sail? I think I would chance it even if either or were telling me "don't or I'll sue."

I have been working on my design for over two years (GOD knows it has got to stop soon) and was successful at acquiring the services to have the scantlings called out and the structural integrity assessed. Yes, it was with strict conditions like, "what I say goes" and "no changes without my review and approval" but it was still my design and only minor corrections were made to my initial callout because of "safety factors that were believed to be high".

A good example is a folding mechanism, scissor type if I remember correctly, that someone came up with and presented to a NA in the PNW. I'll be damned if the NA didn't only contribute to the design, but adopted it for his own portfolio. I don't remember. Two cats or two fold or something.

Wow...500 hours. Is that pen and manila or all these advanced programs available today? I should have kept track of my own, but I think it was definitely well above that, probably double, and I'm still going at it. The learning curve was at least 2 to 3 years.

I am not a PHD in making the written word express my attitude or thoughts exactly as they are, so please do not take my response as combative or callous or anything that may appear to seem negative, as it is not meant to be as such. If anything is perceived as such, it is not my intention.

One request...if not too much trouble...would you mind taking a looksie at my own design and perhaps comment on it...or not...it is ova there ----> at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20302.:D

Thanks
J

 

Yes Masalai, you are right. That is exactly my position.

Richard, my intention is to have a boat that is specifically tailored to suit my requirements. Whether I personally design most of it....or someone else designs most of it, is irrelevant to me. I just want a fun boat.

The reason why I am designing, is because it is fun and I am learning a lot and....after extensive searching, I haven't found a boat on the market that exactly matches my requirements. In fact, through my learning, I have discovered that a lot of professionally built cats have been designed poorly.

If you or James Wharram refuse to look at the final design, then you will never know whether it is good or bad. If you could see that it is good, then why would you be afraid to build it???

I would never hold anyone responsible for my own mistakes. But I would hold the builder respnsible if the workmanship is neglectful, and is obviously the cause of the wreckage.

I am not concerned about a lack of willing builders, because if all builders were unwilling to build a new design, there wouldn't be any new boats would there?

So who would I choose to check my design? People who can show me that they know what they are doing. I don't work on blind faith, and I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to do so.


Regards
- Richard

 

Richard Atkin, at the risk of borrowing your thread again, but relevant in current theme, I am sure a reasonable NA/NE would be delighted to receive a commission so well researched and defined. It almost becomes a technical matter with no need for redraws because the customers priorities were in another direction.

I bet the discount would not be noticable but still would be a valid service fee anyway.

 

The Boxy Fisher cat I'm planning is also a self design because it has specific requirements with no easy way around some of them.

What I find disappointing is that the professional boat builders doesn't seem to care what is important to their potential customers. I for one would not be forced or bullied into buying anything that is not to my requirements.

I really expected that any pro boat builder would sit down with someone, evaluate the design and if nessesary make some apropriate suggestions to eliminate shortcomming or underdesign. I have had two boats built for myself in the past. In both cases the builder spent the time (patiently) and did exactly what I suggested, made some suggestions and he made a sale - twice.

It really bothers me if someone hasn't even seen something and already complains about liable issues.

All this as a whole, is why I often end up doing all the research, obtain the tools and do the job myself in the end. There are lots of very helpfull engineers that can assist in calculating all kinds of things without it costing a cent if you look for them. Material suppliers (gratefully) supply detailed information about their product. In most cases a bit of gained information brings two and two together.

Maybe one should then look for someone who is willing to take the time out and who wants to be the next generation boat builders. Always a new and upcomming guy who wants to set a new pace and make a reputation for himself.

Sorry..

 

Richard Woods
I am not sure of your motives in making the above statement. It is provoking and no doubt controversial. Something to think about:-

You have made a strong connection between the above statement and Woods Designs. Hence you are leaving yourself open to a claim of misrepresentation as the above statement directly contradicts paragraphs four and five on the Woods Designs consultancy page. If the above view is indeed your stance then you should reword you consultancy page.

Rick W.

 

What a refreshingly different reply!

I speak as a well read but “unqualified” amateur designer with a leaning towards simplicity.

My interest is in the Polynesians (Wharram inspired) and I sometimes just can’t help thinking – what did those original fellas know about the technicalities of yacht design as we know it today? Not much, I submit.

I can only surmise they certainly had a good grasp of Archimedes Principle (although he came eons later.) They certainly knew that two hulls were better than one - Monohulls were only “invented” some 2000 years later.) For sure they had a grasp of the prismatic coefficient, hull spacing, rig efficiency…. Oh, and somewhere in between the computer was invented...

Professional people – I in no way undermine your years of study – I salute and admire you.

I just say – Let’s give amateurs a break! Provided you have basic knowledge of what will float, what will slide reasonably through the water, what will resist leeway, what sail area (compared with numerous other examples) will work in a blow…

Let the brothers have a go too!!!

 

First, I don't use Freeship so cannot read the SR34 files. Furthermore the pdf files won't open on my computer (I have Adobe 8.1)

My consultancy page, paragraph 5, says:

"Many people would like help in choosing the right boat for their needs, while others who already have a catamaran want advice on suitable equipment or how to make their boat perform better. In either case it may well be that the boat in question is not a Woods Design. Don't let that stop you; this consultation service is open to all! "

In other words, what it says is that I offer advice to those choosing a design in the first place and also to those who want to improve an existing boat.

Nowhere does it say that I will modify or inspect someone else's design

However, maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by "designing" a boat.

Perhaps you mean you are going to supply some sketches for a pontoon/party boat, but with sails instead of an engine, and then hand those sketches over to a qualified NA to turn into a real boat.

Or maybe you are going to draw the complete boat, including the detail metal work drawings, exact placement of deck gear etc as well as engine, plumbing and electrical installation drawings. And of course ensure that what is drawn can be built economically by your chosen builder.

In which case all you want is to have the drawings "inspected" by a NA.

Initially I thought it was option B you were planning, but now I think it maybe option A

A one off design costs a lot, especially for a small boat. Easily 10% of the build cost. 500 hours at even a hairdresser's rate is serious money.

That's why I prefer to design boats that I can sell many times at a low price. It also allows me time to go sailing instead of drawing, which is what I prefer to do.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

Not only that they could navigate very effectively and their craft were sufficiently robust and seaworthe to make significant and long oceanic voyages reliably. The Pacific Islander voyaging culture is sadly being lost through lack of repeat efforts to pass on the skills at reading waves and stars through their maps.

 

Richard, would you be able to give me a very crude number to give me some idea of what sort of money I could be spending? I'm talking just a very wild guesstimate. Lets say it took you 100 hours to check it over and ammend any small problems, and then you built it.

Some info:
28 feet
fibreglass hulls with aluminium rigging and fittings.
light and heavy sails.
4 'awnings' and 2 fiddly little 'pram hood' tents.
unique aluminium 'shark cage' style bridgdeck.
4 waterproof bed mattresses.
watermaker.
a lot of batteries....2 electic motors to drive the boat.
no furniture in hulls.

Ofcourse it's a wild guess...but can you give me a ballpark figure?


Cheers

- Richard

 

I've budgeted for $150,000 USD.

 

Don't forget insurance and re-sale. Amateur designed boats are notoriously difficult to sell (unless they do something particularly well, like win a bunch of races) and can be impossible to insure at a reasonable cost.

I can understand a designer with an established range like Richard Woods not wanting to get involved in other peoples designs. There are other designers that like to specialise in one-offs or 'different' types of boat/concepts.

Richard Atken
You might like to try http://www.devilliersyachtdesign.co.nz/home.htm
I have no connection but judging by the breadth of stuff on their site they could be worth talking to. If not they may be able to steer you to someone who can.

 

I believe you are going to come in well under budget.

J

 

I would agree that USD150,000 is excessive for a 28ft open deck non racing catamaran.

On my website you can see sketches of my 10m (33ft) Mustang design. You can buy one of those, delivered anywhere in the world, for USD100,000. And that is for a performance cruiser, so includes accommodation and good sails and deck gear in that price.

I charge USD50 an hour for consultancy work.

 

Give me the 150k then. I need some now, & recession, so the experts are saying is going to hit US in the new year, I can spend it before the R hits. Then on second thoughts, You keep it you may need it more than I.

Gee, in '80 my boss was hiring me out at $65/hr and he was a Pom called Christmas, I kid you not! (I didn't get that though. Pity?)

Seasons salutations.