trumpy flush deck motor sailer

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by lake pirate rrr, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. lake pirate rrr
    Joined: Aug 2016
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    before we get too deep into the whole controversy of burning coal and steam propulsion ..

    like i said .. i have some plans already on boiler / engine design .. i'm really not going to be convinced that coal is not a good fuel to use .. as i heard it all from everyone about burning coal for domestic use and everyone was wrong .. i like it very much ..

    at this stage .. i'm more concerned about

    things like under waterline hull shape for a 70 ish foot wooden vessel with about a 20 foot beam .. what type of density and weight something like this would be in eastern cedar heartwood .. if anyone has some idea ..

    what hull thickness would be best for such a design .

    i'm thinking 70/30 sail/motor

    what things should i think about for stability .. i want a boat that won't break up in heavy weather .. goes anywhere on mostly sail .. comfortable to live and drive with a short crew .. i will do coal but will use diesel when there is concern for myself or others about smoke .. though in my experience most coal does't smoke or even smell bad when you make it breath enough air and keep it hot down low to fully burn all the offgas ...

    if you don't mind fred .. i'm rather busy lately but when i have time .. i would love to bounce some ideas off you in regards to my boiler design and motor .. i have the boiler design drawn up already .. but not the motor yet .. but i have the design in my head ..

    in regard to some of the other points made here about coal ..

    At displacement speeds it only takes 2 or 3 hp per ton of boat (2240lbs)

    So a 50,000 lb boat might take 25 HP to operate , 1 to 1 1/2 gallons per hour with a modern diesel and good sized prop.

    >> thanks i was curious about hp requirement per ton of boat

    It will take thousands of hours of boating to make up the cost of the home brew steam engine and boiler.

    >> no .. i'm going to build several of these for home and shop use anyway for heat and backup power .. so it won't be any big cost increase aside from material ..

    >> no paper baggies .. gonna put in a chute

    >> "dock stank" coulda been high sulfer coal .. there is alot of different qualities coal .. also the biggest factor of smell is proper burn .. i burn hot with some little wood added to get alot of air .. and it is smokeless .. nearly odorless .. improperly burned poor coal can be very stanky ..

    >> few mines .. but most coal goes waterside and is loaded aboard barges .. i have no supplier yet .. but a great many are located along the sealanes and ports ..

    >> fly ash isn't dangerous .. and i don't care about the EPA .. i can run diesel along the shore if it's a problem .. but i'm more thinking this as a passageway sailing motorcruiser .. often in bluewater .. this is when i will be burning coal ..

    "toxic and radioactive" >>

    yes .. and sunshine is radioactive ..

    salt .. is toxic .. everything is at some level ..

    coal truly produces very litte ash compared to the fuel burned and it's not so dangerous ..

    you could probably find many 'scientific' reports to the contrary .. but remember most science nowadays is funded by government grants ..

    i do believe .. in this current climate .. you will receive an extension if you find coal to be toxic .. and you will have your funding dry up if you find any appreciable aspect in fossil fuels ..

    i don't know about registration .. but it's okay if i have to register it in another country .. if that's allowable .. not a big deal to me as long as someone will register it ..

    thanks for correcting me on what type of efficiency i should expect from a reciprocating steam engine .. of that i was unsure .. but at any level i do like coal also .. and will burn it .. alongside diesel .. if it turns out to be less efficient under power .. i can still burn enough when desired for heat and machine purposes .. though i do hope i can affordably drive with it ..

    i am thinking a 70/30 motorsailer .. the steam engine would mainly provide electricity and heat .. and any excess would go towards powering the screw .. i would like full electric power like a house .. i'm not big into a tonne of batteries and solar panels and a windmill .. i would like to use a dryer or an electric stove .. hot water . ect .. and the little power that gets pushed through the screw would be mostly to help steer .. and assist the sail ..

    thanks please do help with more advice especially with hull design layout .. weight .. bouancy .. center of gravity .. stability .. ballast concerns .. and other physical boat concerns ..

    but don't get me wrong .. i'm not trying to 'shut down' the conversation about burning coal .. speak as you will .. i like a robust and open conversation .. and appreciate being challenged .. but .. it's that you just aren't going to convince me it's a bad idea .. and it's not the MAIN concern i have ..
     
  2. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    Since you insist that you are not going to be convinced, regardless of evidence, and everyone is wrong, I will not waste time with advise.
     
  3. lake pirate rrr
    Joined: Aug 2016
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    Location: nashville

    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

  4. lake pirate rrr
    Joined: Aug 2016
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    Location: nashville

    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    i think this is the layout .. the trumpys' aft deck and covered area .. bridge ..

    with an addition of the diesel ducks flying bridge and mast and rigging ..

    full length and elongated aftward engine room like elemay plan 2 under the bridge ..

    i wan't a full size workshop in addition to room for coal midship and the diesel engine and this should make for enough room ..

    and still enough for a generous captains quarters .. also seperate from the front in the event we have a crew we can still have privacy .. i like the large windows suitable for 'houseplants'
     
  5. fredrosse
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Location: Philadelphia PA

    fredrosse USACE Steam

    Relevant Steam Rules

    An important consideration if you are considering steam propulsion. Steam propelled vessels under forty feet length, if not for paid passenger service, are exempt for US Coast Guard Rules for steam vessels.

    The boat is not exempt from all the regular powerboat rules, lights, safety equipment, etc. However the rather complex rules regarding boiler certifications, ASME code pressure vessels, code piping, testing requirements, licensed engineer to operate the steam plant, etc. are not mandatory for steamers under forty feet length.
     
  6. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    okay .. well that's important ..

    so .. if i make the boat for myself and not for sale ..

    do i still have to meet the coast guard regulations ?

    i thought those rules were for production boats .. do they actually inspect them if they're over 40 foot in length ? or how does that work ?

    if the rules apply even to a boat you make yourself .. could i just register it off in another country and sail away anyways?
     
  7. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    okay .. i did a little digging ..

    i may not be reading this correctly , but it seems that the coast guard steam boiler regulations only apply to vessels that carry 6 or more passengers for hire ..

    please indicate if this is not correct as there were several different laws .. but this seems to be the most recent i could find ..


    "Due to an increase in small boat accidents, the Small Passenger Vessel Act of May 10, 1956, was passed into law. The requirements of this act became effective on June 1, 1958, and provided that all vessels, regardless of size or propulsion, carrying more than six passengers for hire, be inspected by a Marine Inspector of the Coast Guard, and meet associated safety requirements. These requirements not only cover life saving and fire fighting equipment, but also machinery and electrical installations, hull strength and stability considerations. This law required that operators be licensed by the Coast Guard and minimum manning requirements be met. Additionally, the route or routes on which the vessel may operate and the maximum number of passengers that may be carried are established by the Coast Guard."
     
  8. fredrosse
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Location: Philadelphia PA

    fredrosse USACE Steam

    Rules

    "So .. if i make the boat for myself and not for sale ..do i still have to meet the coast guard regulations ?"

    ANS: If the boat is over 40 feet length, yes.

    "i thought those rules were for production boats .. do they actually inspect them if they're over 40 foot in length ? or how does that work ?"

    ANS: If you operate on US waterways, they come aboard and inspect

    "if the rules apply even to a boat you make yourself .. could i just register it off in another country and sail away anyways?"

    ANS: Yes, OK, but not operating in US waters.
     
  9. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Most boats ventilate from aft to fwd.

    Why not out the boiler in the fore peak where it can be partitioned off with a WT bulkhead , that could perhaps be fire retarding.

    A small second engine could do the anchor capstan , and raise the sails.
     
  10. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    "ANS: If you operate on US waterways, they come aboard and inspect"

    roger that .. so that's a bummer .. i grew up as a lad in the philippines "a.f. brat" .. and i yearn for the ocean and love the islands .. and the ladies and the tropic sun ..

    but this is a problem .. hmm .. because i would be building the boat and launching it in u.s. waters .. so then it would be best to keep it under 40' .. but .. the ocean is HUGE and dangerous in a small boat .. i would feel much better in a 70' boat ..

    and i do want to use coal .. i have a diesel truck .. i prefer diesel to gasoline .. but coal to diesel .. it must cost a fortune to have a boat motoring along on a passage journey on diesel fuel .. a fortune i don't have .. i mean there would be sails .. but .. coal is the most likely means that a poor wanna be sailer like my self could afford to widely travel ...

    soo. .. is there anyway to have a homemade boiler inspected and certified to some level of accreditation or do you HAVE to buy an expensive retail unit ? is it simply a matter of proving some pressure rating capability or does it have to meet other pre defined specs ?

    also can someone without great expense obtain certification to run a boiler on u.s. waterways .. a "drivers license" for a coal burning boat ?? lol ..

    it's funny but .. i would really like to launch a larger then 40' boat if it's possible to overcome the bureaucratic hurtles ..

    thanks for the info // .. boiler ? what .. this boiler / ? you got a problem ?? .. huh tough guy lol .. hate to beat up some carp cops over a smoke stack :)

    & idk fast fred .. that WT bulkhead might be an idea worth looking into ..

    i've been very busy but am still thinking about they layouts and all .. i'm also working on my small boat .. it's gonna be real sharp .. just a little fiberglass runabout .. paint is done looks great .. gonna deck it out in some reclaimed wood flooring and make a wood fore deck on the front .. gonna be sweet .. rrr
     
  11. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    40' .. but .. the ocean is HUGE and dangerous in a small boat .. i would feel much better in a 70' boat ..

    The build cost may increase 10X going from 40 to 70.
     

  12. RHP
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: Singapore

    RHP Senior Member

    +1 for the Buehler. I saw one here in Singapore a couple of years back built in steel and was really impressed.

    Add a slow turning Grdner diesel and she'll run forever.

    http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/575330/title/trawler-yacht/cat/all

    Looking thru the Buehler web site, the boat I saw is the one featured in the build process: http://georgebuehler.com/Building Ellemaid 9.html
     
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