trumpy flush deck motor sailer

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by lake pirate rrr, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. lake pirate rrr
    Joined: Aug 2016
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    ahoy matey ..

    i would like to begin an open discussion about my ideal boat design ..

    i would like your suggestions and input ..

    i will aspire to build this boat . . though it may take some time to do it .. years not months

    here are the overall design parameters ..

    the boat will be a motorsailer based on the trumpy flush hull cruiser design ..

    the layout will need to be changed to accommodate masts sails and rigging ..

    the hull will have to be changed to a full length keel appropriate for a sailing vessel ..

    the ballast will be a combination of some low lead or concrete plus water ballast for reduced / increased draft as desired ..

    the captains chamber should be aft below deck .. but ahead of this should be the motor room ..

    the propulsion should be by 2 engines .. 1 . a 6.9 international idi diesel .. 2 . a bituminous coal fired boiler and engine .. also there needs to be storage area with chute low and midship for holding at least 2 tonnes of coal ..

    i will worry about the boiler and coal engine .. and diesel engine ..

    though input on gearing and tying them to a single prop .. and genset ..

    central heating will be through coal fired hydronic radiators ..

    the reason for the coal engine is low cost of operation .. near silent operation .. but there is exhaust stack .. that is the reasoning for having the boiler / engine room mid/ aft in the ship so that it can come off the back behind the sail and above the personal living spaces ..

    hull will be cold molded wood .. eastern cedar .. red heartwood .. epoxy construction .. likely 2 1/2 to 3 inch hull as advised for displacement and weight and strength ..

    length is to be 60 - 70 foot .. likely around 63 foot ..

    boat will be for distance bluewater recreation travel .. and comfortable living while remaining inexpensive to operate and with minimal crew ..

    please help me design this boat 'nauti pine'
     

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  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    For starters, do you know how to operate and maintain a steam engine? Also, where do you get the information about fuel economy being better than in a diesel? Less economy is why all shipping changed from coal to diesel.
     
  3. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    I do have a steam engine and advanced boiler concept. .. no experience with steam propulsion myself. .

    I do burn coal at home and in the workshop. .. and 'fuel economy' is unparalleled. .. one hot fire can burn for 12 hours blazing hot .. 24 hours still strong .. a tonne of heat on very little fuel ..

    I've grown to appreciate the power of coal and based on what i have learned i have a design concept of a truly modern boiler .. also i keep up with a small steam automobile society that keeps up the conversation of the old steam engines. ..i also have an advanced engine co ncept in mind .. in my opinion there is great potential in coal .. a fuel that has not adapted with the technology ..

    Coal is so cheap now that so many power plants are shutting down .. i can get 4,000 lbs .. 2 tonnes .. for 300-400$ ..and it is much more efficient per lb then any liquid fuel i've seen ..

    I really like coal .. i know .. nobody else is . But after burning it here for some years .. i cannot be without this super cheap . efficient fuel ..
     
  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    You need to compare calories, BTUs or other units of energy. "A ton of heat" is not a quantity you can apply to heat output. Further, you need to compare the efficiency of the Otto cycle to the Carnot cycle of a steam engine. Also, steam engines can be single, double, triple, etc. with different efficiency ratings. What do you call an advance boiler concept? The design of steam engines was very refined by the start of last century.
     
  5. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    i'm willing to crunch numbers .. 'a ton of heat' it is .. but that's not quantifying

    diesel BTU @ density of 7.76 lb p gallon
    19,300 lb / 136,567 gal

    2,000 lb p ton equivalency
    38,600,000

    bituminous BTU @ 2,000 lb p tonne
    19,620,000

    at this point we can be assured a swimming pool full of diesel will burn roughly twice as hot as an equal weight pile of coal ..

    but .. lets look further .

    diesel when burned through a combustion engine acheives roughly 38% efficiency

    reducing the effective BTU of the 'swimming pool' to

    14,668,000 / still very hot

    while steam operating engine like i have in mind ..

    double acting .. tripple expanding .. with servo actuated timing events based on a 4.9 litre ford straight 'big six' engine .. with bearing .. lubrication .. and external cylinder modification ..

    achieving nearly 50% efficiency ..

    (that's not even counting bonus duty as running heaters .. steam .. pressure lines if desired .. cleaning .. ect .. .. )

    reducing the effective BTU of our 'coal pile' to

    9,810,000 / hot - but still not as hot as our 'swimming pool'

    BUT lets also consider the cost of the fuel in our swimming pool and coal pile ..

    @7.076 p lb of diesel .. one tonne is 283.28 gallons @ 2.19$ = 620$

    one tonne of coal sells for = 175$

    the BTU per dollar for each fuel is

    diesel - 23,658
    coal - 56,057

    meaning that coal is 2.36 times more affordable at current fuel prices

    with the BTU per dollar figured ..

    we can compute that diesel is more affordable if it costs .93 cents per gallon .. or less ..

    fuel rates are variable and fluctuate .. so it is entirely possible that at the time steam cruisers were replaced with diesel engines that the cost of diesel was below this threshold ...

    this is not the case today .. i cannot forsee any scenario where demand for diesel and thereby cost will decrease ..

    while coal is abundant and inexpensive .. further with coal fired power plants shuttering .. there is bound to remain a glut and thereby low market pressure .. i don't see demand for coal significantly increasing ..

    my boiler concept incorporates a rotating iron basket grate .. automated feed chute .. pre-heated air tuyers .. a hybrid pipe - tank convection circulation system .. and automatic air / ash separator and disposal .. it's pretty trick .. i've had it in mind for home use but it would be even more well suited on a boat ..
     
  6. Skua
    Joined: Apr 2013
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    Skua Senior Member

    The only problem would be refueling, the boiler. Back in the the day, the "black gang" stood their watch in the boiler room stoking the boilers. They were called the black gang not so much due to being black people, (as there were plenty) but the dust caused everything to be black, including "white" people. Coal dust explosions are not to be discounted, as well as environmental regulations
    for disposal of ash.
     
  7. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    i'm really liking some aspects of this boat ..

    51' Seahorse DIESEL DUCK 462

    http://www.seahorseyachts.com/core/...nits=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=27944&url=

    it is also a motorsailer .. though a steel hull .. i'm guessing the hull lines would be very different below the water line for a wooden boat .. different weight and all ..

    it would need to be elongated .. wood hull profile and ballast .. perhaps as a concept merge some aspects of this with the more comfortable trumpy 'living room' layout .. i like the flying bridge and cockpit on this diesel duck steel boat though .. hmm
     
  8. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    yes Skua .. fly ash specifically is more bothersome then the black stuff .. and if not removed properly can 'fly' all over the place ..

    i burn coal in my woodstoves at home .. coal can be clean inside .. but you must take care in how you load .. fire .. and remove the ash ..

    i do it with no dirtyness or negative impact on our health .. now .. but when i started burning the stuff it was a mess ..

    i've learned how to work it though .. and the main problems of cleanliness will be resolved without effort with my new boiler design ... that is sealed and self contained .. automated computer timed and measured fueling .. and ash removal ..

    ash would be dumped out the side of a hole .. it's not dangerous .. fly ash is just burned up carbon .. but it does 'fly' all over you and everywhere if you toss it into the wind !!

    also i would burn the diesel while near shore as not to invoke the ire of environmentalist minded peoples .. coal is not actually dirty as 'they' would have you believe .. but it's a futile argument .. most people who hate it have never burned .. or seen it .. all they know is it causes the worlds 'ocean tieds' to rise ..
     
  9. CatrigCat
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    CatrigCat Junior Member

    Buehler has plans for excellent boats in wood.
    http://georgebuehler.com/Ellemaid71.html

    You need something that big to fit the coal powerplant, but...
    You will give your sails nice shades of black or even set them on fire.
    You must find a country that registers coal burning boats.

    Consider a steam turbine to generate electricity both for propulsion and hotel loads.
    Then a diesel generator will effortlessly substitute the coal plant (and you'll end up running just the diesel - cheaper to operate unless you spend $$$$$$ for a proper steam plant with many regenerators).


    A question: how do you buy coal?
    You have reusable sacks and you take them to a place that sells coal?
     
  10. lake pirate rrr
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    lake pirate rrr Junior Member

    thanks cat !

    i really like these buehler boats ..

    motorsailer .. the right size .. good layouts .. and detailed plans are excelent ..

    this is a good starting place to mashup with some other ideas a brewin' ..

    that is so true about the smoke staining the sails .. perhaps i should consider developing some type of forced draft somehow down into the water and also deposit the ash there at the same time ..

    just thinking that would be nice .. like my johnson outboard exhausts below the water line above the prop .. i don't know if it's possible as hot smoke likes to rise .. or maybe mist water somehow in the stack to scrub it .. idk .. but i'll sleep on it and see what could be done ..

    glad you brought that up .. these are important considerations ..\\\


    as for buying coal .. i just go direct to the mine and load up my diesel F-250 .. the nearest mine is 45 minutes away .. but i can get 2 1/2 tons in the bed ..

    not to many places retail coal anymore .. but if u go to the mines the guys are great and are happy to help ..
     
  11. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Not sure how many coal mines are water side.

    At displacement speeds it only takes 2 or 3 hp per ton of boat (2240lbs)

    So a 50,000 lb boat might take 25 HP to operate , 1 to 1 1/2 gallons per hour with a modern diesel and good sized prop.

    It will take thousands of hours of boating to make up the cost of the home brew steam engine and boiler.

    And of course the coal storage space used is gone forever inside for living.

    Coal is fine for heat for a liveaboard that is constantly there to refill.

    The best I have seen was a gent from Ireland that had a ton delivered and then filled small double paper bags , and stored it in a metal garbage can.

    2 bags a day ,,1 AM & 1 PM kept his boat warm,tho the dock stank.

    Thank goodness he couldn't find peat!
     
  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The fly ash is a hassle to take care of. It is different from the bottom ash which is what collects in the bottom of the furnace. Fly ash is classified as a hazardous substance and you can't simply throw it away, any more than you can flush used engine oil into the sewer. The Badger, in Lake Michigan, is the last coal fired commercial ship still in operation. The EPA and DNR have been trying to force them to repower to diesel, but they have been working around it by being a historical ship.
     
  13. CatrigCat
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    CatrigCat Junior Member

  14. fredrosse
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    fredrosse USACE Steam

    Misinformation Here!

    I am a steam engineer, have worked with steam plants since the early 1960's, and steam power is still my full time day job. I love steam power, have heated my house with coal, even built a coal fired automatic unattended steam electric plant to power, and heat my house. I have built a few steamboats, many steam engines, and have served on many US flag steamships.

    What a wealth of misinformation I see in several of these posts. The most relevant issues I see here is the idea that one could build a small steam plant that has 50% efficiency. The most advanced steam plants, running with over 4500 PSI steam pressure, producing over 1,000,000 horsepower, are just barely approaching 50% efficiency.

    With reciprocating steam engines under a few hundred horsepower, getting efficiency past 10% is admiral, and getting efficiency up to 20% is virtually not in any way realistic. Real Steam turbines below a few hundred horsepower show actual efficiency much lower than reciprocating engines in this size range. That is solid information.

    So many people have tried and tried to develop workable steam cycles for small power production, this is an ongoing process that has occupied the minds of many professional engineers for well over 100 years. The concept of using an “external combustion engine”, able to burn any fuel, vs. a Diesel or other internal combustion cycle which requires a refined liquid or gaseous fuel is a noble endeavor on many fronts, but let us not imagine that we can out-do the practical realities of engineering and science here. From Stanley steam car technology, through the advanced designs of the Doble steam cars, not to mention the extensive work on steam car technology performed by GM, Lear, and other large businesses, (financed by US DOE in the 1970s) have not been able to achieve 20% efficiency with steam technology.

    Having said that, I am all in favor of steam boat propulsion, especially coal fired, certainly my preference, but not on the grounds of efficiency or fuel economy nor ease of operation.
     

  15. fredrosse
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    fredrosse USACE Steam

    Questionable Statements

    Some of the other questionable statements:

    “you need to compare the efficiency of the Otto cycle to the Carnot cycle of a steam engine.” Never seen anyone attempt to use steam in a Carnot Cycle, virtually all steam cycles are based on the Rankine Cycles.

    “bituminous BTU @ 2,000 lb p tonne
    19,620,000” The cheap western coals (typically named powder river basin coals in the power industry) have heat values in this vicinity, good bituminous coals have heating values about 130% - 140% of what you stated here.

    “fly ash is just burned up carbon” Actually, when you “burn up” carbon, you get CO2, Carbon Dioxide. Ash is usually a complex mixture of rock-like residues that do not participate in combustion at all.

    “You will give your sails nice shades of black or even set them on fire.” With reasonably good combustion, no black smoke. Black smoke is unburned carbon, and that would not happen with a well designed combustion system. Also, exhaust at the chimney would not be hot enough to light anything on fire, with reasonable boiler efficiency.

    “You must find a country that registers coal burning boats.” Is there any country that registers “boats” that would not register a coal burning boat? Every year I ride on coal fired steamboats, all registered in the USA. When I visited Scotland I was riding on coal fired steamboats, all registered. Same for England. I have not ridden on coal fired steamboats in Germany, France, Switzerland, Italy, but I know many do exist, operate frequently, and are registered.

    “Consider a steam turbine to generate electricity both for propulsion and hotel loads.” Such low efficiency, see previous fredrosse post.

    “The Badger, in Lake Michigan, is the last coal fired commercial ship still in operation.” I think not, there are many, although they are rare these days.
     
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