Truck diesels

Discussion in 'DIY Marinizing' started by parkland, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I'd suggest that the boats sitting around the marina are the ones that are rebuilt most often at low hours !
     
  2. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member


    Maybe from the oil or coolant not getting changed enough.

    I'd run evans coolant, which doesn't allow cavitation, and is good forever.
    The 5.9 cummins is good, but the dt360 and dt466 are a different class, they are much stronger.
    Guys can get 1000's of HP out of them for tractor pulling, cummins can as well, but you need a ton more upgrades, and it's still not as reliable.


    The dt360 and dt466 are also cheap to aquire, and parts are cheap. a complete works rebuild kit is like 1400$, I wonder what the cost is to rebuild a cat engine?
    dt466 mechanical injectors are like 30-100$ each.
     
  3. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Looking at the MSDS for Evans coolant its just 100% propylene glycol, do any of the diesel wet sleeve engine manufacturers ( all large industrial diesels) endorse that ?

    They seem pretty keen on the other additives that form on the surface of the sleeve and protect it. You could void a warranty not using the recommended type of coolant.

    In a marine engine it might require a larger heat exchanger to use a lower specific heat capacity fluid.


    [edit: added] And the engines in seldom used boats in marina's usually get rebuilt due to moisture and salt getting into the engine through the exhaust circuit. Rusty bores valve seats stems. They keep most marine mechanics in business.
     
  4. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member


    I haven't been around enough inboard engines to be knowledgable about failure modes.

    Evans coolant isn't as good as water at removing heat from an engine, it can hold less BTU's of energy per liter.
    However, it does not cause cavitation damage, and doesn't cause eroding or electrolysys damage to the coolant system.
    It also runs at 0psi, and has a boiling temp of 300 or 400 degrees.
    It never needs to be replaced, ever.
    There is nothing in it to degrade.

    With all that said, the surfaces of the metal which heat is being drawn from, instead of being scaly and corroded, stay clean and could transfer heat better.
    If a hot spot does develop in an engine, regular coolant can boil around it providing minimal cooling, while evans will continue to flow over the surface removing heat.

    If the heat removal capacity bothered you enough, you could put in a lower temp thermostat I suppose.

    I wouldn't worry about it much, unless your engines are undersized.

    IMHO of course.
     
  5. broke_not
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    broke_not Junior Member

    If that's the case, they're laughing all the way to the bank. We use a 50/50 mix of water and propylene glycol in our ground thaw machines like this one:

    http://www.heat-king.ca/hk300-heat-king.php

    Using standard ethylene glycol is frowned upon because there's always the possibility that a coupling may leak or a hose may get damaged....spilling some of the heat transfer fluid on the ground.

    We buy straight propylene glycol for ~$16/gallon at the regular price and have bought it for ~$13/gallon during off-season specials.

    As for using it in an "undiluted" fashion in an engine, I don't know....having never done it myself. However, I can attest to a statement on the Evans website about how it thickens during cold temps. We have a container of it in the service truck in case a machine needs to be topped off out in the field. Before mixing it with water, (i.e. right out of the jug), if it's cold outside, (say below 20F or so), the stuff does get pretty thick. At around 0F or below it's like corn syrup.

    If I put straight propylene glycol in my daily driver and fired it up on a typical winter morning, one of two things would probably occur: Either my water pump drive belt would squeal in protest, or the water pump impellar would spin on the pump shaft trying to slosh the stuff into motion from a standing start....
     
  6. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "I'd suggest that the boats sitting around the marina are the ones that are rebuilt most often at low hours !"

    Da Book for almost every engine has procedures for "Out of Service for Over 30 Days" ,or similar.

    The dock queens never seem to bother , the result is a dead engine in 1/10 the time it takes to actually wear one out.

    The procedure for most is detailed and can be expensive , so folks purchasing boats with "low time" engines , BEWARE!!!

    First look on any boat is to see if the oil being used is even diesel rated , and of the correct weight.
     
  7. woodboatwayne
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    woodboatwayne Junior Member

    I ran fast supply boats with 3, 4, 5, and six engines. Most had Cummins KTA19's. 25,000 hrs was typical service time. I have had Dodge Cummins trucks with aprox 1,000,000 miles. I know International makes good engines as well, but I would hardly call them tougher than Cummins. International made
    the infamous 6.0 Ford light truck engine. I think the main things are to avoid
    electronics, insulate well and run dry stacks and keel coolers. If you don't run
    a keel cooler and need a heat exchanger accessory type are available from/for big block gas engines.
    Woodboatwayne
     
  8. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member


    OK, the KTA19 is rated at the highest, 700 HP. 700 HP and 19 liters of displacement. I'd hardly call that exceptional.
    I've seen industrial detroit diesel engines with more hours, more HP, and smaller package.
    Anyone can design a low power diesel, and make it last forever, with low power.
    I'm sick of all the cummins fanboy mouth pieces talking up a storm all the time; you know which cummins engines commonly develop 1,000,000 miles on them? The old ones, which put down a neck breaking 160 HP.
    NOW, I'll admit, the international 360 and 466 are in the same boat; only making around 200 HP, maybe 300 HP, but they are a heck of a lot more engine than a cummins 5.9. Ford's old low power diesels faired just as good as those old low powered cummins. I know, I had one. 500,000 miles, and never had the engine apart yet, ran like new.

    The international dt360 is the same displacement as the cummins 5.9L, but it is a way stronger engine. If you don't believe it, pull them both apart; the crank on the 360 makes the cummins crank look like it belongs in a prius.
    It is also wet sleeve, and the head is a LOT stronger. The heads will hold over a hundered pounds of boost, tightened down hard enough. Rumors of 300 PSI have been talked about.

    And let's talk about fords sour international 6.0 diesel while were at it... such a pile of crap.
    It must suck, for every other truck owner, knowing that ford is the clear market leader.
    The 6.0 is a strong and tough engine, don't even kid yourself.
    The bottom end easily rivals cummins, and they can pound down some crazy power to the wheels, using a much superior transmission to what dodge ever offered.
    I've had this argument so many times, with so many people, but nobody wants to admit that ford has, and always will, have a good thing going.

    Think the 6.0 is so bad?
    Well, out of my friends, I know a few guys who had to do the deletes and head studs. About 3200-3800$ to do that.
    In the same time period, I watched one guy replace the heater core on his GM DMAX truck, that was 2700$.
    I also watched another guy replace his injectors in his dodge cummins, for the 3rd time, with the bill nearing 5,000$.
    Oh wait, really? What am I talking about? I thought a cummins engine last forever?
    Not even close, smoke some more crack, that truck only had 130,000 miles on it, and thats right; 3rd set of injectors. And it ended up getting burned cause of so many other little problems with it.

    What is the point, that I'm trying to make?
    There is one, it's that don't listen to people that talk up cummins all the time, our company reviewed average operating costs every year, and the fords were always cheaper to keep on the road than the dodge cummins.

    Guys I talk to that run owner operator trucks, and have been around for a long time; always say the same thing; international and detroit diesel last the longest, and are the cheapest to fix.
    Cummins and CAT are for young fanboys that put big decals and stickers on everything.
     
  9. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    A small naturally aspirated Cummins is a durable engine. The Mercedes straight six bus engine is another long lived naturally aspirated engine.

    One problem with conversions is finding a suitable small diesel. The modern high output engines with electronic gizmos and turbos are not user friendly.

    Only a user friendly powerplant , in which the owner can perform routine maintenance on a small budget,will generate long duty cycle .

    Poorly maintained cooling systems and exhaust systems are the issues that cause catastrophic repairs on boats which sit idle..low hours
     
  10. woodboatwayne
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    woodboatwayne Junior Member

    I won't be cornerred into bashing Ford Trucks. I love them. It is just ashame they don't have a good diesel. Try to find an aftermarket kit to install a Ford
    (International) in a Dodge or Chevy. They don't exist. Cummins in a Ford. All
    over the net and magazines. The Cummins 5.9 is the small block chevy of the light truck aftermarket for a reason. To my knowledge Detroit doesn't have an engine to compete with the KTA 19. The 60 series, which is a good
    engine doesn't live near as long in the bilges, and the discontinued 16-92 DDEC was a piece of crap. The Cat 3412 was/is a good alternative but more expensive on both ends. The EPA and the PC noise police have ended the advantage small truck diesels have had over gas engines. I am in the market for a marine conversion for the 6.0 in a 05 ford at my shop. A weld on padeye so I can attach an anchor rhode. The 6 cyl Internationals have an enviable reputation.
     
  11. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member


    I think you said it good, when you reffered to the cummins as "the chev 350 of diesels".
    Many years, what did it take... 3 wires to get the engine running in the bay?
    Can't beat that, in terms of a simple install.
    The old mechanical cummins 12v engines are what made the reputation. Those suckers are about as solid as an engine can get.
    A lot of guys don't realise though; when they look at all the cummins internals VS the v8 internals; they aren't bigger cause the engine is tougher, they're bigger cause the inline engine develops much more resonance and vibrations on the parts. There are plenty of 5.9 I6 cummins truck engines, that have tossed a rod out the side of the block. Are they a great engine? Yes, I believe so. Are they indestructible and invincible? No, people just think so.

    The EPA really has done a number on truck diesels; in my mind, I think in some very counterproductive ways.
    The last few years have been some of the worse, namely for navistar and cummins. Trying to run super high EGR instead of DEF.

    I find that fords always a "slough" of horror stories, but I also think a large reason is the number of trucks they sell. Being around all these trucks daily, I don't think one brand really has a major upper hand. Instead of fighting over which one is best, I'd rather fight about which one is crappier, lol ;) .
     
  12. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member


    Yes...

    And which diesel engines even fit in a pickup?

    -Well there 1 model of cat engine' a v8, thats gutless, heavy, and expensive on all fronts.
    -There is 1 model of detroit diesel 2 stroke, no power, but sounds awesome.
    -Cummins 4bt, 6bt, 6.7 i6
    -International dt360
    -ford/ powerstroke 6.9idi, 7.3idi, 7.3 powerstroke, 6.0 powerstroke, 6.4 powerstroke, and 6.7 powerstroke
    -DMAX 6.6 engine... ,6.5 diesel, 6.2 diesel..

    Then, there is a slough of smaller engines, like kubota, isuzu, etc, that guys have swapped into trucks, but usually with a very limited following.

    Out of all of those, the cummins is easy to get running, good on fuel, puts down decent power, and has lots of performance bolt ons.

    Out of all the engine swaps ever done, the cummins 5.9 mechanical has to be #1, I'd think.
     
  13. Milehog
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    Milehog Clever Quip


    Oh! Oh! Oh! (raises hand...)

    The 3208?
     
  14. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    :D I think thats the one! haha.
     

  15. slow fred
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    slow fred Junior Member

    I was wondering how many diesel "experts" ever disassembled and rebuilt a diesel engine ?
     
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