triditional double ended gaff rig ketch

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by serray, Jun 21, 2014.

  1. serray
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    serray Junior Member

    hello first post just discovered This site very interesting input I am a wanna be blue water sailor have a love for old salty boats found one that could be built in steel (seems the safest) a jay benford Mercedes 35 wondered if any one has any knowledge of this design good bad is it seaworthy etc or are there other designs in steel to look at thanks for any input
     
  2. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Welcome to the forum.

    Jay Benford is a fine designer and well known. His stuff is very sound, often overly so on this type of hull. The Mercedes is one of his older designs and a very traditional set of lines. She's a big hunk of boat, being about 23,000 pounds, which is pretty hefty on this LWL. I have a 65' sloop that weighs about this amount, to give you an idea.

    The design is a fairly slack bilge, well balanced, flush decked, double ender, commonly revered to as a Colin Archer type. She'll have a soft and comfortable motion in a rough slosh, though she'll not be much of s speed demon and maneuverability will be wanting, particularly when backing down. She'll track like a freight train and the flush deck helps make her a strong sea boat. She has a lot of internal volume for her size and would make a comfortable little passage maker. Plans are available in hard or round chine steel, as well as several other build methods.

    Personally I'd want a traditional looking design, but with modern construction and hull design elements, so she'll be faster then she looks, lighter (which is material savings during the build) and you'll embarrass other boats of her type and class, in maneuverability and speed. I think you'd like his later designs, done on computer, where as Mercedes is hand drawn, though possibly converted by now.
     
  3. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Just watched a similar sized double ender being built in timber near me.

    Amazed at how little room there is in the back of a 35footer with a canoe stern. A similar length boat in hard chine and broad stern was much more livable.

    Sure, the little bit performance is nice, but heck, I couldn't live in that sized boat for long.
     
  4. serray
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    serray Junior Member

    par thank you for the information at this point I am looking the Mercedes caught my eye but am open to other similar designes always wanted a tehiti ketch but then decided I wanted it built in steel looked at tahitiana ordered the plans then came across the Mercedes but still looking thanks again serray
     
  5. serray
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    serray Junior Member

    rwatson thanks you certainly have a good point guess I just got that Tahiti on the mind for the longest time thank you serray
     
  6. serray
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    serray Junior Member

    to rwatson

    rwatson thank you for thoughts on this certainly worth while the thing with me is I fell in love with a Tahiti ketch many years ago and never lost that sense of appreciation for the sense of beauty in my eye that seems to over ride the practically of my dream thanks for the input much appreciated serray
     
  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    All the Tahiti style ketches that popped up as a result on the John Hanna (and others) designs, generally are real pigs as sailors. They're heavy, slow to maneuver, don't point well, often near a modest gale to get away from a dock, etc., etc., etc. Bill Crealock had a much better take on this type of yacht, cutting down the D/L by as much as 30%, improving it's lines, etc., though the WestSail 32 was still a pig.

    My recommendation is to get some real rides on this style of yacht, before you commit to many thousands of dollars, in a project. Once you've got some time aboard this style of ketch, then get some rides on more modern cruisers, such as an Alajuela 33 (just an example double ender), which will offer a similar experience, but with modern design and construction features.
     
  8. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Yeah. Their boat will likely run away from mine on almost any point of sail, but I've a lot more internal room for about the same LOD.

    Not to mention a lot less time & money in the build.

    However every time I look at their detailing and timber work I have a serious attack of envy....

    PDW
     
  9. serray
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    serray Junior Member

    par I certainly appreciate the info I will indeed look for any opportunity to sail on the designe of boat I mentioned previously have looked at the alajuela 38 was unaware of the 33 but I do like the thought of a steel hull the strength thing I suppose but I see your point still looking thanks serray
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Double ended steel yachts in this size range, will be a difficult search. I'm curious about your "strength" concerns, though. Unless you plan on some ice breaking passages, most building materials can be more than suitable, in terms of strength and stiffness. In the 32'(ish) size, steel is much less viable as a reasonable hull material choice, mostly because of the shape and weight compromises necessary. In larger sizes, this becomes less a problem and steel can become preferred over other materials, because of cost and strength/stiffness per pound.

    If a double ender isn't an absolute requirement, you'll find lots of 32' cruisers, with a whole lot more usable internal volume and much better performance potential as well.
     
  11. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    If you like steel, then you really do need to think a bit bigger. 36' transom sterned or 40' double ended. Otherwise, the weight issue just kills you. Even at 36' with just a steel hull and all wooden deck and cockpit and house, she's going to be really stout. One of my former neighbors built 5 35' steel cruisers in Canada in 1968. One of them was for himself. He operated boatyards for most of his life, and cruised in the Caribbean during the winters from '68-'05. His boat passed survey with no issues in '05. It weighed 24000# empty. It was a very nice boat, but a bit cramped for me. The builder was 5'2"and his wife was 4'8".
     
  12. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Seems pretty overweight to me.

    My Colvin design 12m schooner displaces 15300 lbs in theory. Not in the water yet but it'll be close to that.

    A Van De Stadt 34' steel multichine sloop displaces around 11000 lbs IIRC.

    Steel sailboats don't have to be super heavy.

    Agree about the double enders. Having built my transon hull design, the hardest area to plate out nicely was the bow. Doing 2 bows, esp with a fat canoe type stern, would be a right PITA not to mention the loss of storage. Mine was dead easy to plate once I got past frame 3 - Tom has compound curvature in the bow sections so it required strip plating. The rest I did in 10' long sheets going from deck edge to chine and chine to bearding line.

    If the OP wants a 'traditional' steel gaff ketch with a transom stern he should look at Tom's Saugeen Witch design. I can say from personal experience that it's quite easily buildable by someone with reasonable metalworking skills who's never built a boat before in their life. There are a fair few that come up for sale too.

    PDW
     
  13. serray
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    serray Junior Member

    par philsweet and pdwiley your info is much appreciated I am afraid I don't have an in depth understanding of boat building or handeling I guess i am more guided by my appreciation for the appearance of the boat seems I need to rethink this matter thanks much serray
     
  14. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    you might consider marine grade aluminum rather than steel. this make a strong yet light hull, and more suited for the 30 to 40 ft range in size, and offers similar befits (and limitations) as a steel hull design. Resale should also be good later, and much less corrosion issues (if detailed correctly) than steel as well.
     

  15. Tanton
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    Tanton Senior Member

    Steel double ender.

    Simply send me an e-mail. I'll have something for you in private messages.
    ymt@tantonyachts.com
     
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