Transverse frame calculation

I give it free of charge, with offset and weight caculation if you want.
It is a steel sailing boat I designed years ago.
Who cares, we are not the CIA, it is just a design, and more people can enjoy it the better.
Almost 90% of the plans are never built, it is just for dreamer. And it is a good thing than we can help people dreaming. It is part of life.
And if they built it the better.
You have to sell them, but since the copyright remain in the possession of the designer, he should share his work. Like a painter, he paint, sale, and then everybody can enjoy the painting. What's wrong with that?
Is Brent that superior that he doesn't want to show the design? no he has something to hide, no other explanation.

 

LOL
Ok I'll have to take your word on that one
Tom

 

I can sortuv see your point but that should be up to the designer ?

Tom

 

The fact is, though many architects may not like it, if I believe that the designs they gave me are dangerous, not structurally sound, or even something more finite, like, not meeting their marketing claims in regards to build-ability.... almost every Westernized country in the world has laws specifically in place to be able to critique, comment, test, research, refute, warn the public, etc. The laws for the most part are concerned primarily about intent, and in the case of the forum, I think it is "very" clear that nobody is claiming Brent's design as their own, trying to profit off his designs without just compensation, or anything similar to that. In fact the board, consisting mostly of professionals, has took special effort to not post complete plans, or really anything resembling instructions. The pictures they provided have been deliberately altered so that they would not be workable by the original "plan" but at the same time illustrating their criticism.

All this talk of copyright violations is a red herring to try to Brent to address the actual mechanical issues involved in his boat construction, which after 40 pages, he still has not addressed.

 

That is my point. Secrecy is childish. If you can't show your design, you have something to hide or you are ashamed of.
Imagine an architect who do not show the plans?
Calatrava showed plans and model to be shown by everybody. If somebody copied it? no of course.
You are tempted childishly to copy only when you think it is a secret, not when it is on the open.
We are talking little yacht for God sake, not the penultimate weapon of mass destruction hidden under the desk of Dick Chenney
Who by the way do not remember why he hide it, but he liked secrecy.
Yacht, it's just that, very little boat for a little enjoyment. Can we put this in perspective?
Copyright is a big name for a set of stupid lines.
And I do that for a living. I don't comme crying like a little girl if somebody stoll my plans, (hoping the whole set is stollen, so no mistake is done during the construction!) I send them a invoice, and if they don't pay, I advertise it as a new built if its well done. Sure enough, it bring me a client.
You have to be clever not absurde.
To much publicity is never enough, and be copied is a form of recognition.
Daniel

 

Your problem is that you don't seem to be able to separate the message from the messenger, nor appreciate that the more insulting comments regarding Brent are responses driven by Brent's abrasive, myopic statements and personal attacks. If you can point out, in an intelligent manner, where Mike, John, Daniel, Richard, "Bearflag", "sorenfdk" and Lyndon have erred, please explain. Over the years, I have read and heard Brent cast aspersions on the reputation of so many builders and designers. "As ye reap..."

Surely, you recognize that Brent makes a lot of statements that are false. If you don't, it could only be because you have a very limited knowledge of boatbuilding. Maybe, when you start building your Swain boat, you will appreciate what these designers, engineers, builders, etc., have to say. One look at some "detractors" web sites and other posts should convince you that these people know their stuff.
Food for thought.
(Btw, if this is "kim", the "1" in 6013 denotes positions and the "3" describes flux composition - something basic that someone who gives so much advice on welding should know)
Mike

 

It is funny when Brent congratulate Brent
He can also says:

He can have a lot of variation.
Some people need to use alias to talk to themself

Daniel

 

Yes I can understand it would be a long drawed out battle in courts and more than likley the only one that would win would be the lawyer's .
Only reason I mentioned it to begin with was when I looked at them, It looked the same to me as looking at a distorted lines drawing but still have a readable table of offsets.
Richard allready pulled them so no harm no foul
Tom

 

The buyer's perspective

About 13 years ago, while shopping for another sailboat, I came across a 30(?) foot steel sailboat, designed by Brent Swain. While that boat sold before I was ready to purchase - in retrospect this was a good thing - it sparked my interest. A few months later, while in Popeye's sailors exchange buying stuff for the Cal330 I had bought, I found a stack of "books" written by this same designer, Brent Swain. The book was rife with warnings about these mainstream designers, professional builders, and other people in the marine industry, all of whom were out to rip me off.

I asked my father if he'd take a look at the book & give me his opinion, as he was a metallurgical engineer whose clients included many of the local shipyards & drydocks, in his spare time he had been involved with the building of several boats, and, like myself, he had been a journeyman boilermaker in the shipyards before he went back to school for engineering at the age of 34. In a nutshell, he was less enthused than I, though he did spend some time discussing issues that, as a steelworker & former welding inspector, I'd understand. Over a number of years, as I sank deeper into the world of origamiboats, the discussions became arguments, as I had become an Orwellian sheep, bleating Brent's criticisms of traditional building with frames. I believed the snake oil salesmanship - a very fitting term - and arrogantly believed that my own experience of building two '83 foot fishboats, in conjunction with my formal steelwork & marine experience & education, placed me on a level playing field with my father.

Some of the longer serving members will remember my earlier membership, here, as "canadianwelder", a time I'd just as soon forget. As the years flew by, my own education & experience brought me to the realization that Brent didn't have a formal education when it came to steel fabrication & welding. No big deal, that was my strength, a designer - actually any person - can not be all things to all people. In December of 2006, I bought my first set of plans - not Brent's designs, as I'd already decided that there were several issues and the resale value was poor in the local area - but kept up with the origamiboat group, as the speed with which they allegedly assembled these boats was very attractive. In the spring of 2007, I went to the Comox Valley to work on a 55 footer - the boat mentioned earlier in this thread, which seems to grow in length each time I hear of it - and meet Brent & others & view a few examples of Brent's design. During my two weeks there, the snake oil wore off & I came to these realizations:

1) The "origami" method will not save time in building. I have met people whom have built these boats quickly and those who have slogged out the process for years. The build time is dependant on the builder, not the method of construction. Yes, a builder of the traditional w/transverse frame method might spend an extra 2 to 4 days making frames, but this is not a significant period of time when one considers the time to build a complete boat.

2) The scrounging of materials & construction of homemade versions of winches, anchors, etc., would use up any minor gains in time.The use of scrap material is a non-starter with me, due to fatigue life of alloyed metals. The other homemade bits & pieces would save money but lower the resale value and narrow the market of buyers. The anchor is a rip-off of the Danforth design, with subtle changes to disguise this. I don't steal cars from dealerships because I think that they sell them for too much, why would I do this with anchor designs?

3) The lack of commonsense in steel fab/welding aspects of these boats is disappointing. The arrogance of the designer in sticking to his erroneous beliefs is annoying & could lead a first-time builder to make serious mistakes.

4) The anomalies ingrained in the design & book are of worthy concern. I place far more value in the opinions of the "detractors" on this thread, as they have much experience & have made reasonable offers to assist Brent with the engineering of his design. Such an offer is a dedication to spend hours that these people would normally be earning a lot of money for. That is gold, not pyrite.

5) If Brent has no personal issues with a builder, he will spend much time on the internet helping them in their build and if they are in the local area(Comox Valley) he will advise in person & will assist if they wish to hire him. Yes, it is a great benefit and not common to have such involvement of the designer.

6) One must have a very thick skin to tolerate Brent's abrasive, and sometimes incorrect, opinion/responses. I couldn't imagine having to be in a designer/builder relationship with such a person for an extended period of time. Fortunately for Brent, many of his builders are first-timers & will follow along like an obedient sheep. Those whom question will normally be bleated down by the flock. In comparison, I have spoken to designers whom answered my questions in a non-confrontational manner, choosing to assist, rather than offend me.

7) Though pertinent info. is missing from the design plans, with the book, video & web-site(origamiboats group), one can collect all needed information. This gathering of information, which should be included in the plans, does take time, however.

8) Twin keels! There are not many steel boat designs that incorporate twin keels and this is an attractive aspect to some, including myself. Unfortunately, the structural support of these keels is questionable.

9) The evolution of Brent's design seems to have gone through stages of improvements over the last few decades, with the kinks being worked out as problems are encountered, rather than through sound engineering principles which could have been instituted at the inception of the design. Once around "the spiral" is not enough, gambling is for Las Vegas, not boats.

10) Brent's design is not the panacea of steel boatbuilding, merely another means to make a boat. By denigrating "the establishment" Brent has developed a reputation as a "Maverick", which can be attractive to someone who has no knowledge of why designers & engineers do what they do & therefore can not comprehend the value of what they are offering. To wit, it doesn't matter if your plans cost $500 or $2,000 , when one considers the total cost of building a boat. If you can't afford the more expensive stock plans, you really can't afford to build a boat. The price is indicative of the time taken to develop plans and in consideration of market value of the plans. Most designers would suffer great financial loss if each set of their stock plans were only sold once or twice. Those plans must represent EVERY aspect of building the intended boat, or the designer's reputation will sink like a rock. That is reality, not rocket science.

11) The bs of building faster, stronger, better by utilizing this method is, to use one of Brent's favoured phrases, "Snake oil salesmanship."
Snake oil - definition:
"A product that has been proven to not live up to the vendor's marketing hype. The term comes from the 1800s in which elixirs and potions of all kinds, even ones that supposedly included the oils from snakes, were sold as a cure for everything that ailed a person."

I had my buddy call someone who was recently selling a Swain boat. Afterward, my friend gave me the notes he had taken, over the phone. The selling points were the same mantra that is found in Brent's various comments, in his book & on the group web-site. In fact, I finished most of my buddy's sentences in that conversation. Had my friend been a serious buyer, as someone who is not overly knowledgeable in steel boat building - though he built a couple of wood sailing dinghies in his earlier years - he told me that he had become somewhat excited by the seller's salesmanship of the design & construction of the boat in question. "Great spin" was his comment. So snake oil salesmanship is contagious.
Mike

 

I wouldn't call it no harm no foul, I think by pulling them, many readers who have not been following this thread may think that the non-Brent side of the argument is hyperbole and conjecture.

The diagrams were nice, because anyone who saw them with an architecture, science, engineering, or just plain common sense could see that something was amiss.

The documents were removed out of courtesy and so that the website would not be subject to a dilemma.

However, I think in doing so, the public has lost a valuable resource for determining the merits of brent's work on its own merits, rather than relying on his 10 commandments, or on the criticisms of his methods detractors.

 

Tom,
As you've built to Brent's design & are knowledgeable in working with metal, what is your assessment of the completeness of the plans? Were they enough for you or did you gather info. from other sources(video, book, webgroup, Brent?). I realize that my question may put you on the spot, but I believe that whatever your opinion is, it has validity. I'm only asking about completeness, not trying to drag you into the debate of transverse frames, though maybe you have an opinion to share on that, as well.
Mike

 

Mike, thank you fro your very insight story.
Very informative and helpful.
daniel

 

Hi Tom

There's no table of offsets. You meant you could read the line offsets on the shape development?

A table of offsets describes the 3d hull shape. Like a lines drawing Brent doesn't actually have any table of offsets.



Great well written effort from Mike (welder)

 

LOL
Mike
I knew someday I was going to be hit with that question.
Personaly I would like to see more strucual info and not have to outsource the info or figure it out as you go. Yes it is easy enough to ask on origamiboats site but It would be much simpler to look at a detailed drawing . Lot of good helpfull people on that site and Brent was allways quick to awnser questions. As you know mine was the 26' and there were not many built. all that I found had been modified and stretched to 28'
I can't say what the plans are like on the others .

The old framed- frameless debate, I try to avoid those. I have heard about all the arguments there are. I don't see a problem with ether.
Tom

 

No I was trying not to get into to much detail there.
Open forum on a touchy subject.
Tom