Train submarine

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mistereddb, Oct 26, 2013.

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  1. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    That's what it looks like, since you're a very isolated, smallish country without oil resources, little offensive military capabilities, and then only in league with a bigger power/s.

    This is how China works, and has been working for decades, not only in the Pacific, but Africa and South America....

    http://archives.pireport.org/archive/2009/September/09-18-cm.htm

    Owing to it's isolation and other limitations, Australia is forced to walk a line.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-04/australian-voters-face-a-choice-america-or-china-.html

     
  2. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    What is gonna be the name of this ship ? HMAS Implausible ? HMAS Unaffordable ? Any ideas ?
     
  3. JSL
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    JSL Senior Member

    For this creature....How about

    Sub - Terrain
     
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  4. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    You know it just hit me, this is supposed to carry oil, so it is going to have to be double hulled. Oh good lord the cost of this abomination is going to be insane.
     
  5. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    Wouldn't it technically be double hulled as the train cars are inside the hull structure?
     
  6. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    How about the S.S. Pinworm? :D
     
  7. mistereddb
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    mistereddb Junior Member

    parkland
    I have been a coal miner for 25 years and seen three booms and two busts and it depends on China if we are about to see our third bust.

    As it is unclear if some new mines will be economically viable there has been a sharp drop off in new investment and with the rest of the world printing money our dollar has appreciated so manufacturing, tourism and farming has been hit too.

    My opinion is that we should print some too and invest it in genuine infrastructure such as Parrahub http://www.parrahub.org.au/ to reduce the $9b wasted every year with Sydney congestion but most Australians hate the idea of printing money.

    The majority of the unemployed here want to get a full time job but it seems that employers do not want to employ full time people because of the difficulty sacking them plus all the responsibility and red tape.

    Regarding the train submarine I was just a bit concerned about our fuel security and although people here point out the many reasons why it would not I think it would be worth a tank test. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  8. JSL
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    JSL Senior Member

    ps: don't forget to make sure all the rail gauges are compatible. Some regions may not be the "international gauge" 4'-8.5"
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  9. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    The whole train idea is a huge limiting factor. Far better would be a design to carry standard shipping containers. They could sit on rollers and have a guide over the top, so they wouldn't even need to be chained down, cause they couldn't go anywhere.

    I think the OP needs to realise though, the cost would be tremendous, and I think he has a vision that this could be some type of "grass roots" project, but that is absolutely impossible. The cost to build and run such a project would mean the average person couldn't afford anything to do with it.
     
  10. mistereddb
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    mistereddb Junior Member

    JSL
    Actually the idea is to only have a 1km twin railhead adjacent to the beach so one container train comes off and another one goes on within one hour and the containers would then be delivered by truck to their final destination.

    It would be good if there was some international standard so the trainsubs could be used worldwide.


    parkland
    It is a good point you bring up about securing them because I thought that as the trainsub would be below the waves they would not need securing.

    The steel would cost $500,000 at most so I cannot see why they would cost too much particularly if there were 100 produced.

    Remember they would be extremely simple with no expensive weapons and when we are talking about fuel security too the cost is the last thing to worry about.
     
  11. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member


    You still need to read some books on submarines :rolleyes:

    I said in my post quoted above that a submarine needs to operate below one half the largest wavelength to find smooth water. So if your largest significant wavelength is 300 feet you need to operate at 150 feet or the boat will pitch and or roll. At times in storms subs cannot find calm enough water to trim the boat until they are below something like 250 feet !


    If you operate a sumarine 'just immersed' not only will it be significantly affected by the ocean waves but you'll use significantly more fuel than a surface ship because you have greater wetted surface to displacement and at best the same wave generation, usually far worse, as a sub intended for operation immersed is optimised for running underwater and is too bluff bowed for surface or close surface operation.

    Again ........ the 1km sub is nothing more than a schoolboy fantasy in the cold hard light of reality as an engineering project it fails the most simple precursary investigation straight away, and that's on structure alone..... As several people have pointed out.

    Marine engineering isn't a faith based belief system.
     
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  12. mistereddb
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    mistereddb Junior Member

    MikeJohns
    Dunno where I first read that it was calm but this backs up what you say here http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/faq.html

    Can you feel the waves on a submarine when it's under the water?

    It depends on how big the waves are at the surface and how deep is the submarine. During normal weather conditions, a submerged submarine will not rock with the motion of the waves on the surface. In fact, during even moderate storms the submarine stays perfectly level at its submerged depth while the waves crash above. In extremely violent storms like hurricanes and cyclones, wave motion can reach 400 feet or more below the surface. Though not as violent as on the surface, these large waves can cause a submarine to take 5 to 10 degree rolls.
     
  13. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    It's called wave orbitals, just about every amateur submarine fantasy adict that comes to this forum has this significant misunderstanding. It's not calm just below the waves, in fact the motion can be very violent. Also in shallower water wave orbitals don't diminish in the same way. That makes shallower water a very undesirable environment for anything submersed in heavy weather unless it were very 'heavily ballasted' sitting very firmly on a firm bottom and well anchored.

    There was another chap into the idea of concrete subs that was more than a little self deluded about some aspects of submarine operation too. It might pay to read that thread.

    Bit more important is the inescapable fact that a slender 1km sub is structurally inadequate. I'm afraid it's just a joke.
     

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  14. FMS
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    FMS Senior Member

    A reason you favored this idea to common barges was the ability to go in any weather. Beach landing with rails would require constant maintenance of these special beach ports. Storms would cover the tracks with sand. Erosional could be a problem. I would expect frequent damage and delay with a beaching operation. And the available routes would be very limited to the ports built only for this.

    Building up a local reserve would be more protective and more economical.
     

  15. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    [​IMG]

    500,000$ of steel- what kind of steel? you are completely ignoring that almost all the steel will be bent. A giant labor intensive shop will be needed.
    500,000$ would get you a personal 2 man submarine, thats about it.

    And there still isn't a selling feature; submarines are spotted by a special sub-surface satellite now, a shallow train sub would not ever be hidden for a second, so what other benefit does it have?
     
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